Dean Holden & Danielle Nicholls

Dean Holden & Danielle Nicholls

In this week’s podcast, we get to talk to married couple Dean Holden and Danielle Nicholls. Danielle is an English TV presenter, radio host, model, and singer, best known for presenting on CITV. 
Dean is an ex-professional footballer and the current first-team assistant manager at Stoke City having previously managed Bristol City. Together they have five children. Danielle and Dean faced every parent’s worst nightmare with the loss of their 17-month-old daughter Cici.

We speak to Dean and Daniel about

• Their careers
• Transitioning from working to becoming a Mum and then being a working mum
• Dealing with tragedy 
• Grief 
• Moving forwards

For more information on The Summit Foundation please visit our website www.thesummitfoundation.co.uk or on socials thesummit_fdn thanks for listening.

Audio production by airaphon

Transcript

Stuart Webber: 0:09

Welcome to the climb podcast with me, Stuart Weber. In this podcast series, we'll be interviewing guests from all walks of life, some famous, some talented, and some just with amazing stories. But what links them is they've all overcome huge challenges and adversity in their personal lives. This podcast will run alongside my greatest challenge climbing Mount Everest, all in aid of raising funds for the summit Foundation, with the aim to help those who need a helping hand with their own life challenges. Join joining me on all of these podcasts will be my friend Jonathan, who is also a trustee of the summit foundation. Jonathan's background is in TV, so a completely different field to me.

Jonathan Parramint: 0:47

Thanks. Sure. honored to be part of it. So I guess this week, Danielle Nichols and Dean Holden.

Stuart Webber: 0:58

Welcome to the Klein podcast today's guests, Dean Holden, former football current coach at Stoke City Football Club, and Danielle Nichols, whose previous presenter on CITV. And I believe, looking to get back into TV. Well, welcome to the podcast.

Danielle Nichols: 1:14

Thank you for having us.

Dean Holden: 1:15

Great to be here. Thank you.

Stuart Webber: 1:17

Thank you. I mean, Dean, we'll start with you. Because obviously, you know, a lot of people will be aware of your story. And we'll and we'll go into that as we go along, around, you know, some of the tragedy and things in your personal life. But I think it's important for the people listening that we get to know Dean and Danielle, a bit today. And this isn't just about what happened, you know, 10 years ago. So I mean, Dean, obviously, we've known each other via football for probably five, six years now. When you were Bristol City, I think is when we first come across each other so well. I suppose I'd like to sort of straight to it really? Yeah, obviously, you're a player, you become a coach, and then you become a manager. The bit I always find a fascinating one is when you step up from being a coach to a manager. A How did that come about? And be? How was that experience?

Dean Holden: 2:04

Absolutely loved. Every single second of it really did. Danielle probably tell you a bit different towards the end when I was when we were losing and I was about to be sacked. But I genuinely did. I was assistant to Lee Johnson first for four or five years. steps up as a interim caretaker for last five games of the season. When he got sacked. We got a couple good results. And then the club pretty much I think interviewed everyone and did not interview for interview. Jonathan.

Jonathan Parramint: 2:28

They wanted me but I said no.

Dean Holden: 2:32

It's probably the right now and then they offered me the job that summer. And yeah, I went in into it with my eyes open. The one thing I promised myself that I wasn't going to change. Because I've built a great relationship with the players obviously as the assistant but I just believe in there's a different way to do it in football than what I'd sort of seen in my playing career, which is very much dictatorship and players and great managers, big salmon and managers like that were brilliant. I think there's a different way nowadays. I had great respect for the players, I was really interested in building this sort of environment where players stuff actually wanting to come in and were excited to come in rather than just because it was, you know, they were paid to do it or, you know, it was a job that they were they love to do. I just wanted them to come in and beat and just be the best they could be every day and it sounds really cringey but and we created that. And that was tough in COVID To be fair, but no, I loved it. I absolutely did. And I'd love to do it again, obviously at some point in the future.

Stuart Webber: 3:24

And what would you say is the biggest difference from being a number two to number one?

Dean Holden: 3:27

The only thing I found was that obviously the press did a lot more with the press dealing with obviously the ownership which was difficult because Steve Lansdowne the owner was in Guernsey because of COVID So it was all zoom and stuff so that was difficult but making the big decisions that was that was all it was you get paid a bit more to make the key decisions that was cool well as I say there's there's ways of doing things I was really honest with the place I was explained the sort of reasons around the decision making so they were on board with it and I genuinely did enjoy it.

Stuart Webber: 3:58

So obviously when it when it comes to an end at Bristol City, how did you take

Dean Holden: 4:03

that? Not good. I lost my marbles for for effort based around the decision. I thought it was really harsh at the time with the amount of injuries that we'd suffered and we were in the position we're never gonna get relegated without a I think five defeats on the spin. And normally you come under pressure at that point but I was comfortable the way that we were working it was about to turn the reason I lost my marbles the most is because it was what quarter past 10 at night on a Tuesday night we lost it onto ready and obviously Daniel and the kids and my dad no one were back in Manchester and I didn't want the club to break the story that night just fine just let it ride your morning announce it then let me drive on. And for whatever reason, they wanted to break it there and then try to FaceTime Daniel and FaceTiming me Dad was tough we gotta be honest. He was he was at home obviously lives for at night. You know, he's been there from day one. So that was the hardest thing really feeling like you'd failed. Yeah, and let them down.

Jonathan Parramint: 4:53

Did you know that that hinged on on the gap that game that night

Dean Holden: 4:56

I ended Yeah. Steve the only one on the radio the night before the Monday night pops off football phone in thing and almost said that Yeah. All set up so well yeah, I suppose so yeah, but same time, I mean, and it will come under a little bit we'd lost to Watford six and on the weekend which is never easy but you know, look at the squad difference and as I said we were up against it but he couldn't say it was the fans because they weren't in because of COVID. So I knew was coming under Ella knew that night if we got beat I might have been. But I still thought I'd get the opportunity to be honest. I was surprised he was 13. I think we referred to we were six points off the playoffs. And we're actually Giant Eight on points. Yeah. We've had a brilliant start to the season. Really brilliant start, I think everyone was expecting me to really struggle in the beginning. And we got off to a flying start. And then as I said, we can't always blame the injuries, of course, but you know, you look back. And there's definitely mistakes I made, I did a full sort of debrief, probably about three weeks after I got sucked in and went through everything from day one chronologically, right the way through, because they always take notes or stuff of meetings, I've took what I've said and the tone and stuff. I went through everything. So there's loads of things to learn, loads of things to learn. But I really believe I was able to do it early. That's just something I really enjoy to do, like I say, just because I wanted to create, but he was all about the environment. It really was just going back

Jonathan Parramint: 6:13

to when you first took over. And obviously you'd already been there under LIFO for a few years. So is it difficult going from assistant to manager? Because obviously you have a certain relationship with the players that I assume is different to the one that the manager has? Or had at that point? Did you have to do anything differently with the players to let them know that you were in charge now? Or did you just continue the relationship that you had?

Dean Holden: 6:33

It's probably easy with newer signings. Yeah. So when you when you bring it on players, and of course they immediately come in and have everyone calls you gaffer. That's what we're getting used to that. Yeah, weren't really bothered to be honest. But the comment, never saw it. So right now on the gaffer, it's been before them. Yeah, Dino before that. And now I think as I say, I think I remember it's a play, I remember seeing it as a player where it's an experience culture, get the opportunity, and all of a sudden you walk in a different person next day, and you just not be authentic. And I just thought I can't lose that edit. I really did. I've got the wrong touch the rollout last week, and we roll out last week, and it was so nice. Were all FaceTiming. And it was a brilliant, it was a brilliant time. And no, I didn't I didn't. I didn't purposely try to change anything or really just fall. I'm just going to be myself with this and not to try and do it a different way just to do it the way I believe it should be. Yeah, she'll be done.

Stuart Webber: 7:21

And Danielle, how was it for you supporting Dean for that period? You know, it's ruthless, isn't it? You know, you lose a game, you're honest. You win a game, it's, you know, you're, you're a genius. And, you know, football is, I believe the worst industry for that. Have you go from hero to zero? within 48 hours? Yes, I'm vice versa. And I always think, you know, when I'm hearing people getting criticized, okay, there's people away here that like, like you just touched on your dad, where it means a world to him. It's his little boy still, even though you're massive. But then there's a wife at home with the kids who loves her husband to bits wants to be there for him. But also, I suppose, have to have an understanding of that. What comes when you become number one, how was it for you?

Danielle Nichols: 8:11

I think, I don't know if I should say fortunately, or unfortunately, we're pretty tough cookies. Because lives kind of thrown a lot of crap out away. So. So things like the media didn't bother me. Being kept himself kind of away from the media, and I believe so. So we had this saying, when I used to do theater work, and I met this old theater darling, he was a dame in a pantomime. And he was he was like, really old school theater. And he said to me once, a little bit drunk after one of the shows, he said, Darling, if you're going to read the good reviews, you have to read the bad reviews. And I said, So what do you suggested he said, I suggest you read no reviews. So that was like when the Pantone was getting reviewed, as some people said it was good. Some people just said it was rubbish, whatever, you know, I remember getting a review for panto at the Opera House in Manchester. And it said, Danielle would be nice if she signed live. And I realized that was actually a compliment. My voice was on track. And he was like, yeah, so that was like the biggest compliment you could ever have. And I remember a rank a local radio and just like, just for the record, because we're talking about local radio, I sing live. raise my voice that the media is difficult to handle, but nothing that we couldn't handle. We felt very unfair When you love somebody, and when you know they're doing really well. And obviously there's a stumble because he wouldn't have lost his job if he hadn't been. But I knew how well he was doing any circumstances. And I think as a person, injustice is really difficult to handle. You can handle anything if you think it's fair. Yeah. So that's difficult, and especially when it's somebody that you Love. Yeah. So I'm not allowed to say that. For sure

Dean Holden: 10:03

I say what you want? Yeah, sure

Stuart Webber: 10:06

it all sorts of nervous. So nervous, I just say

Dean Holden: 10:13

the first time she's ever sort of checked anything with me, it's football talk.

Danielle Nichols: 10:21

be paid our wages the last month.

Stuart Webber: 10:25

And then, Dean, obviously, you've gone to stoke with Michael, who, you know, I know a little bit as well as obviously, you know, top guy, great manager. How's that been? And how have you found the transition back to being a lumberjack, because I know you're ambitious to be number one, again,

Dean Holden: 10:39

I made a decision when I was when I was gonna go back in, if I was gonna go in as an assistant, which I did, I needed to go in, again, cringy comment, but someone that I feel I could really learn from. Obviously, Lee was younger at the time when we started got together older. And so I worked, coaching budgets together, sort of learning on the job, really, Michael, as you say, really experienced international manager. But he's the type of leader that doesn't need to lead on everything. He's got very little ego. So he's happy to sort of trust the staff. He's got he's made huge changes two and a half years, he's probably been a bit of a sporting director in fairness behind the scenes, as well as a manager and he's changed the performance department, the medical team, the analysis, everything, recruitment. So there's a lot of work going on in the background. On the pitch this season, it's not obviously not gone as well as we would have hoped for. But you know, there's still 40 points available, which we're going to go and try and get as many as we can, but we nearly went into some of that I got the job at Bristol. So similar to 2020. Michael approached me and asked me to go in as his assistant then and then I sort of half agreed it really. And then Mark Ashton rang me and said, We're gonna offer you the Bristol City job, which of course I needed to take. Rang Michael immediately, and I was gonna text him me. That's it. Don't text him ringing. And I rang him and he was nice. Yeah. Good advice. Yeah. Because obviously, I was a bit sensitive advice.

Danielle Nichols: 11:49

Yeah. Anything that's a little bit awkward in it. Yeah.

Dean Holden: 11:52

I was a bit because not saying anything. But you know, you give your word. And you might say it wasn't it wasn't almost agree. But it was we've had good conversations. And he was brilliant. He said, You've got to take that you've got to take it. And as soon as I got sacked, he was on the phone again and said You wanna you want to come back? And it was great.

Stuart Webber: 12:08

When when that yeah, when

Dean Holden: 12:09

when and again, because I'd only been a manager for a short time, of course. But you know, what football is like to do with a certain managers probably won't take me in thinking I was going to be some kind of threat if they lose the job. Besides sniffing in the background, so brilliant for Michael to get to get me back into great club line. It's a great club, huge support.

Stuart Webber: 12:25

I love that when someone shows that security, you're exactly right. You could be seen as Plan B there. And when you're brave enough to do that, as Michael has been, always I've huge respect for Paul, it shows the secure himself in our industry, as we unfortunately know. And I'm sure it's the same. We'll talk about your industry in a minute. So many aren't secure in who they are and what they're about. And that's, I think, is one of the saddest parts of our industry.

Dean Holden: 12:50

I agree. But I think it's not like they're not going to give the job to someone else. Like when I got sacked I brought in Keith down in and Paul Simpson who two really experienced coaches from from the FA, who both the managers, and the first thing I said to involve was like, I don't want you to get the job. Like it's not like they're going to retire the position.

Stuart Webber: 13:06

Like say someone's getting oil to wealthier, it's again, I think it comes back to ego, ego. And unfortunately, men are insecurities that I think we will have an element of but yeah,

Dean Holden: 13:20

I think going back to the question about the assistant manager that whenever someone asked me my so if the gaffer asked me an opinion on team selection or weft, what time you want to travel to like, wherever it is. It's easy to just throw opinions. I always, always, if someone brings me from a club about one of the players, you know, should I always give that advice as if that was me in that position? Yeah, if I was the manager of the Ligue one club or Scottish team, would I take that play with that, in that, you know, would I play it's easy to say at the Gafurov change system. And the date the day before Lee got sacked at Bristol City, we were having a tough run. And we played Cardiff on the Saturday he said Ireland on the Friday, so right, then you get, I get sacked, you get the job, what would you do? And I said exactly what I thought we would have done at that time, which is what I then went on to do afterwards. So that's why you can look yourself in the mirror and think well, yeah, unfortunately Asti job, it was terrible, because he loved it. And he was brilliant. But like you said, if they've got to give it to someone,

Stuart Webber: 14:09

you'll be so much better prepared now. For next time, because it's my assistant at Norwich is a guy called Neal Adams, obviously was a top player back in the day and a member of older me, what I like about him is, is he's got a massive level of empathy. So with Dean Smith now our head coach, because he sat in that chair. So I'll bounce things off Neal and go, What do you think if you're sat in the chair, because he's been in that chair? And like you've been in that chair, so when Michael's asking you for advice, you actually no actually have sat in that hot seat, and it's hot and the pressures on and I think sometimes it's so easy to throw comments out there when you haven't done that.

Dean Holden: 14:43

Hopefully that makes me a bit resistant. Yeah, I think so.

Stuart Webber: 14:47

I think it can't not. It's the same when Neil are placed near London because he's sat there. He's been there. He's been that guy. He's been sacked as a manager, so he knows what that feels like and concern potentially life upside down. little bit ahead of academies as a good sign Steve Weaver, you know, he's lost three jobs in his career. And he always says the same things to head coaches and stuff. I'm not here to get you to suck. Because I've been sacked. I've been that guy. Yeah. So I'm not gonna say play a player unless I genuinely believe that that player is ready. Because I'm not here to get you to suck.

Dean Holden: 15:18

Got me through that adversity in it. I always wanted to be. I think you look at someone like Ryan Giggs, like a one club money at the most incredible I would have loved to have had that I would have done anything for that career. But then the career that I went on to have through injuries and other things like that his league won the two championship or to Scotland all over the place. Really, I think that stands you in good stead for being a manager because you've had all experiences you know, you've got three year contracts. And then the owner walks in Oldham and says we're going to liquidate the club next week. Like all the stocks that was a good phone call to

Danielle Nichols: 15:46

find that one. Can I call you back?

Dean Holden: 15:49

wasn't wasn't invented back then. That was that was what I did. Smartly

Jonathan Parramint: 15:58

knew it was gonna get sore. But with pressure, you talked about the pressure in football. With you, Daniel, live TV presenting. I can't even get my head around how somebody could go out and do that.

Danielle Nichols: 16:09

Jonathan, I'm adrenaline junkie. I honest to God, anything that was pre recorded, I did say like, right, let's go again, I think oh, it was just so much bad just doing it the first time. So yeah, I love it is the answer. And I think we're both a bit like that, aren't we? We both like he loved the challenge and the stress, like the stress. You loved it. He loved it. He liked it shone through it all. And I think I'm a bit the same. Like the more pressure that's on, the more exciting it is far. You've got to be able to censor yourself a lot in your head before you speak. Because I love a swear word. I love a swear word. But obviously you can't swear a George's television. So like people. People knew me like my best friend was like, Danielle, you can't get through a sentence without an F bomb.

Dean Holden: 16:55

This is where she's at in a midlife crash. She's just done a stand up comedy course in the summer.

Jonathan Parramint: 17:02

Do you write stuff? Yeah.

Danielle Nichols: 17:04

I've got a little tiny little five minute set. Um, no, I don't think I'm gonna live yet.

Jonathan Parramint: 17:08

Have you done? Yeah,

Danielle Nichols: 17:09

I've done I've done about six or seven gigs. Where about Yeah, just in and around Manchester. I realized when I got on stage, and I was crapping it and I'm upset. I'll say this is what made me feel alive. Danielle. I've been they said,

Jonathan Parramint: 17:23

Well, that's another pressure cooker that isn't it standard. Because there's a meat you know, immediately. Yeah. People laugh or they don't say

Danielle Nichols: 17:30

exactly. Yeah. And they don't love to be polite. Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan Parramint: 17:34

Brutal.

Dean Holden: 17:35

She just doesn't get out. Can anybody go and do stunt? I can't think of any genuinely can think of anything apart from running around naked man. But, like, talk about the nurse. But she doesn't seem to. I went into watch when they filmed CITV back in the day used to film in Birmingham. And I was I was injured. I went up for the watch. And I'm sat behind the cameras watching it. Like you're almost kind of thinking I was going to my life. And then I heard it was Stephen Malone. She was presenting with just asking about like in between links. Then they go right five, four, and then you should go boom, straight into. I don't know it's like a chemistry thing in it, I suppose. Yeah. Do to have got that was put I can see that.

Jonathan Parramint: 18:09

I wouldn't be able to breathe if I was in that position. Yeah, I wouldn't. I think I would just can't now. But I would really struggle over there's no way I'd be that relaxed. But how did you get into it? Initially? How did you get into presenting?

Danielle Nichols: 18:25

Well, I was I was in a pop group. Right? I'd done the whole theater school thing. To be fair, I hadn't done the whole third school thing because we didn't have any money. So I couldn't go to theater school. So I did a BTech at the local college that was in performing arts. I felt like I was in theater school. I was in my head. So I did that when I went into the pop group got a Blue Peter badge, but um, Blue Peter, I think we got like 85 in the charts.

Jonathan Parramint: 18:48

Oh, wow. That's good, though.

Danielle Nichols: 18:53

But no, it wasn't for me, it's been a pop star back in the Dow 2000s. Like, you know, you had stories about steps and things like it was tough that they kind of own you like you're working all the time. You don't see anywhere because you're just in a studio and then hotel and so it was all a little bit like that. And, and it was great. But I didn't know if it was for me being part of a group. Because I'm a bit like Marmite, you don't mean, sticky and smell phony? No. I didn't really fit as a pop group, I don't think and I didn't have strong enough vocals to be a solo artist. So it was like, right, what What else am I going to do back to the drawing board? And my mom saw it in a newspaper called The stage which I don't know how old you are. But she said, Danielle, there's an audition. Err, I think you'd be really good is for kids television presenter. Right? All right, then go on. So got my granddad's camcorder because he was the only one showing my age and did an audition and yeah And apparently there was like nearly 1000 people applied and you were the one yeah, they took 20 and then they cut it down to six. And then they picked me and Steven,

Jonathan Parramint: 20:09

how did you two meet by the way?

Dean Holden: 20:11

We grew up about three streets away. Oh, did you Yeah, in Salford, Swindon in Salford so we still we refer in 14th We didn't really know each other because you're only able to go so far and then the street yeah there's one summer when we got the crossover and then one was was always like out with its we lived in there there's a school field across and meet me and my brother married to Danielle and a sister funnily enough, which is, oh wow, we've never been on Jodi Mikayla. She was always on the field playing Rounders with the kids and playing football and God knows she was a school year older than me as you can see she's she's a bit older than me. So she she left school year before me and went off to she's just touched on there with the with the pop group and all that living in London and living the life then she came crawling.

Danielle Nichols: 21:02

Let me just tell the story. So we had a mutual friend who worked at the sunbed shop. And I went to go and meet somebody

Dean Holden: 21:10

for being a modern Phil Brown. Honestly, I've not been on a sunburn, I don't know.

Danielle Nichols: 21:17

Oh, I got it. She went for somebody. She said, Do you know Dean holding cell Fantasia saying can I give him your number? So I said come on, and you can give him a number. I was about 19.

Dean Holden: 21:30

We agreed to go for a meal on the Monday night I played on the Saturday football we played we beat Cambridge in the FA Cup and I played against Trevor Benjamin. Oh yeah. On the got a broken nose and woke up on the Sunday morning the biggest shiner and then random his finger woke up on the Monday me over icon black. It's up two days. So we're up for our first date. And I'm just

Jonathan Parramint: 21:50

first day impressed by that or what

Danielle Nichols: 21:53

made him look like a little badass, which he really isn't. So that's really fun. And then I smashed the glass dinner at the table. showed you my tattoo in the Tyler.

Dean Holden: 22:08

He was there from Korea when he was in the tropics and went to this. There was a restaurant near us funnily enough called ISIS, which they've now changed the name

Jonathan Parramint: 22:14

of they Yeah.

Dean Holden: 22:17

That was short, but it was our favorite Italian. So we went to the Trafford Centre didn't when he was currently running, what's his name, the

Jonathan Parramint: 22:22

Carlos,

Stuart Webber: 22:25

after me, like kind of staring

Danielle Nichols: 22:27

at Kambala. And I was like, We are not going out because you're a footballer. We all know what reputation football is. So we were friends for like a good but a few weeks, which is quite long for me.

Jonathan Parramint: 22:42

Firstly, it's startling when you enjoy friends, first, colleagues,

Unknown: 22:46

colleagues, colleagues, help us off.

Dean Holden: 22:53

I was obviously at Bolton, we were in the near the top of the championship, it was all going out of 19. And then Chief thought, this is gonna go brilliantly. And the player on the way Yeah, so just at the wrong time when, like about a month, like I said it should have picked Kevin Nolan.

Stuart Webber: 23:14

And then, Daniel, just to finish up a little bit on your career, because it's like something I find fascinating because society has changed a lot now to respect that. Women can have careers as well. But I do still think we're a little bit backward in. When children come along. There's an expectation that the woman gives up her career. And it's funny that whenever my wife gets asked by the media, she always gets asked, What's it like to be a working mom? No one's ever in my life. Yeah. How did you handle that?

Danielle Nichols: 23:46

Well, so I want I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. And I said to Dean, I didn't think about your babies and we got pregnant by accident and what we thought was pregnant.

Dean Holden: 23:58

We wasn't I wanted him she'd bought me a Jack Russell. Oh, god. Yeah. He

Danielle Nichols: 24:01

kept saying I want babies. I want babies. I want babies. So we bought a dog. I said that although we got three years out of that, before he started. No, we kept jack to 17. She was 17 when she died. But yeah, so what I just mean three years of him not saying he wanted a baby because this dog was such hard work. And I was like, see, you say you want a baby. So we did that. And then I thought I was pregnant. It was I was in a bit of an accident. And then so I said to him, I'm not having babies if we're not married. So because we were engaged forever. We got married and then got pregnant on the honeymoon. You're absolutely right. It's there. It is unfair. So I don't like moaning about things that are wrong. I like just kind of being the change and saying, Let's make people aware. So So little things like then on Saturday morning, said, Oh, stay in bed. I'll take Mitzi to dancing fire. Hello and for me, what do you mean? I'll take your ticket into that Superman? Oh, I'll do that. Ooh, fire. I'll clean those pots fire. Do you see what I mean? So and as he like, even he said, Oh, you know what I mean? You know, I get it. I totally get it. You know, I'm not gonna be big, like raging feminist, but it is difficult. However, I am the one who can is the only one who can have the babies. What do you do? He had a slightly more stable job at that point. Slightly didn't Yeah. We journeyed around everywhere with the kids. And then, as you can see, I'm very mild mannered and I'm a right pushover. So I said, right, the kids are in school. Now I'm not keep moving around. I'm staying in Manchester with the kids, because I want it that stable. And I want to get a job. Yeah, that was the plan. The plan was, I was going back to work. And so CeCe would have been coming up for two. And I was like, right, let's start looking at work. It's gonna take a while to get back into it. And then she died. So there was never a plan of 15 years being a stay at home mom, that was not the plan. I never intended for that to happen. However, when you lose a child, I'm a strong person. So I just wanted it to just be okay. But it isn't okay. It for a long time. It's not okay. And as you've said, like, it would have been easier had I had a more normal job, because I could have probably gone back to it. And it had been a nice distraction. However wet in this job. I'm selling Danielle, this is the product. So and I was a mess. Yeah. And I have to be cheerful and happy and positive and great and lively and upbeat. And I didn't feel any of those things. I felt sad and empty and depressed and frightened. And all the things that I was that used to make me feel really brave. Let's do this. It's really exciting. Suddenly, I just wanted the whole world to just stop. Because anything, it sounds ridiculous. But when you lost a child, you can cope until one little thing, and then suddenly think, Oh, I can't do that I can't do that I can't cope with so I couldn't I knew I couldn't cope with rejection, that I knew that would be a difficult thing. And in this business, you're gonna get told no, I had a wonderful conversation the other week with an agent on the phone that started with Well, I'm not gonna lie to you, Danielle. You're the wrong side of Artur. Oh, this is

Jonathan Parramint: 27:22

beautiful. Yeah. That's the start of a chat. Yeah.

Danielle Nichols: 27:26

The interesting thing was, she said, she said the thing is, I'm 52. So I'm not being ageist. Yeah. She said, But, and I thought, God, what do you want to do? Throw nine years in the bin?

Dean Holden: 27:35

Yeah. But then the next day you went and met another agent who was amazing.

Danielle Nichols: 27:39

Opposite. That's what he said. He's like, I don't know. Because I did put

Dean Holden: 27:44

yourself out there again, after all this time to make make a go of it. Once Yeah,

Danielle Nichols: 27:50

I am sick of it. I'm sick of

Dean Holden: 27:52

that rejection was tough for you on it for the night. And you woke up next morning, and then had a good day. So

Danielle Nichols: 27:56

you're right. And then the next day met an agent who was like, right, we'll get you this or do that. We'll do this. I'm gonna bring you on Monday. And we're gonna do that we're gonna do that. It's interesting. But do you know, do you believe in like, the flow of life like that when you're making the right choices? everything just flows? Yeah, that's what's happened since I've decided to go back to it. And I thought I'd get a lot of doors slammed in my face. We haven't had a lot of doors. There's been a handful of people who said Thanks, but no thanks. But most people have been like, really interested. And the hardest thing is when someone says, yeah, do you know who you are? And I think no, you know, 22 year old Daniele, you really don't know the 43 year old? You know what I remember? Someone said to me, What have you done? And I said, I've brought up five human beings. Yeah, that's what I've done. Do you know what you're doing in that period of time? Bring up five humans. Six, really?

Stuart Webber: 28:58

So I mean, you touched on CC there who tragically died, you know, 17 months of meningitis B. Yes. And you guys are now part of the charity aren't you were ambassadors now for meningitis now? Yeah. Which is brilliant. And I saw some of the other day where you described it as like living in a horror movie.

Danielle Nichols: 29:19

Well, we did. We've done a lot of work, we've had a lot of therapy. So So I find myself speaking like a therapist if I'm not careful. But I left my body a little bit on the day. I wasn't in my own body. I don't feel like I felt like and that's something to do with like your brain protecting you that you feel like you're apart from the person. It's happening to me, I didn't cry on the day. It's like I was completely numb. And that's out of just pure fear. But that's how I describe it to people I say Have you ever watched a movie and the characters and she's turning the lights on and the light switch don't work and then the man is running behind it with a chainsaw. Are you thinking Ron Ron Ron man, that I'd rather live that ever today than ever have to live that day the other day and again, I'd rather be chased by a man with a machete in a bloody horror movie than ever have to have that date ever again. So that feeling of rejection or him losing his job course those things are sad. Yeah, but that's your superpower now because nothing's that bad. Yeah,

Stuart Webber: 30:23

I was gonna say does want you to have been through bring a level of context

Dean Holden: 30:28

talking to the players recent without stoke and you can get bogged down by results. Yeah, there's a there's a war going on. And it does give you that context is no there's no no two ways about it. That's that's how you have to say things. Some people think that you don't care because you're not the Antonio Conte screaming his head off all the time showing all this. There's nothing further from the truth. Like he sees her in like defeats her right in right in there. But at the same time, you just know that there's a solution. And that was the biggest thing. That's what's

Danielle Nichols: 30:57

great. Yeah, so anything in life, anything in life, you can fix. You can't bring your kid

Dean Holden: 31:02

back. That was it. That was that was the biggest thing for me is that the Senate is that end where you think I'm not the way we were brought by when launched incredible upbringings both are totally different, both brilliant, childish thing we really loved fun kids from our parents. And we were always taught to be able to know a little bit I suppose where we're from, you know, I mean, you've always got to get open and fight and don't use excuses and all that sort of grit which we're putting into it. We had a great she loves her family meeting like the kids that we playing on on fortnight and FIFA and all on your PlayStation Remote slimmed down because mom wants from but we that's why we try

Danielle Nichols: 31:37

and the one played on the

Dean Holden: 31:41

you know, daughter at a dance competition at the weekend and they put the wrong music on. She's eight years old plus Mitzi second competition. And they put their own music on and then the governor to come on stage and someone else went on and it was just went massively tits up and but she went on there and she performed it. Run off and all the kids run, turn and run off now, obviously no judgment on anyone. But for her to do that, in that. I think it's brilliant. That's the way we're trying to bring up our kids really sit like and try to explain. And as always a solution to every facet

Danielle Nichols: 32:11

pie. There's always a solution to everything. And and that's what he's like He gets an iron with it. But you're like, go, what's the end product? Like? What was the end of this? Yeah, so that's why I

Dean Holden: 32:22

just always believe every decision, start the end and work rather than just muddling through. Yeah, right. Why? Right? Because I think that's just the way that my brain

Stuart Webber: 32:30

right there as well. You know, with your eight year old there, the music being wrong. That's that's real life. And that's like turning up for a meeting. Or a job interview. You got a presentation ready and the fella goes, Jeff doesn't work. Yeah. What do you do you either walk? I'm sorry, I can't do you go? I want this job. I'm gonna have to find a way here. Yeah. And I think we're kids. It's a gift we can give our kids is that ability to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. I really think we have to do more of that because we hold their hands. We want to protect them. Because it's a natural thing to do

Danielle Nichols: 33:01

is to I believe very strongly in that there is a fine line. But I believe very strongly in letting children make mistakes. Yeah,

Stuart Webber: 33:08

I got pulled over. Right? Yeah. Yes. So guess what? You tripped over it? Yeah, I'll do next time. I'll do my best.

Dean Holden: 33:15

I'll be going oh, do you see, again, it sounds like you're not judging anybody that has parents that can chase in a little toddler on the pool for two weeks, like, let them fall in? You stood right next to me or take a second to grab them out? Yeah, they won't do it again.

Stuart Webber: 33:28

And what I'm fascinated about is I read about that. When you lose a child, one in two marriages, break down, split up or whatever. So how did you to avoid falling into that, which must be so incredibly easy to do? Right?

Danielle Nichols: 33:45

We're still

Dean Holden: 33:47

doing it, we've gone close. It's been tough, like, which to go, will never you'll never get to the end. We're always it's not easy to be married after we've been we've been together 21 years and different challenges along the way. So you got to find a way to want to keep the relationship going. Yeah, that was the ultimate test. Like Google's a brilliant place. But there's some scary stuff on there. When you go through something like a child because the stats are against them. You know, you're going to both we want he's going to become addicted to something like you say the marriage issues. And there's loads of things that are just constantly going through your head and you change as a person. So the person I fell in love with and obviously we checked you change. She was 1415 when we first kind of went out together as kids and then we got back together at 19. But we're not that person, no one would be on none of us know, just through normal experiences. But when something happens, it really changed me as a person. I gotta be honest at the time. So I was a mess for two years like I was. I was I was still playing I had that. I could go and get that purpose from playing. I was out of contract when I got myself a club with Dean Smith. Thank god who you're working with now. Brilliant bloke, he really saved has been bought and got me on the coaching ladder, but at the same time, I was probably drinking a bit too much at the time on a Saturday night after game for that release. Yeah, not me at all. Don't wake up in the morning. And if I was having a good session on Sat down after again, just Daniel never had that purpose she was on with the kids and keeping everything going. But back then I was kind of bringing the money and stuff. So it was a team effort when it

Danielle Nichols: 35:10

Oh, is it? Everything is a team effort every you choose to be married, because it gives you you still always love each other. I think a lot of relationships by software, they still love each other. Yeah, he's just that you just eat life's hard. And I think you need to give yourself a little bit of a break and say, we'll try and make this work. And if one or both of us can or if it's too then we'll have to just look at splitting up as a family that's absolutely completely somebody's story.

Dean Holden: 35:42

Never want the kids to go through Daniel's parents and fathers are still really good friends. And I've been 20 years since he's play baseball you have 19 won't see it won't really want that for our kids, but the same time won't want them growing up in a household where the mom and dad were arguing all the time. toxic environments, do

Danielle Nichols: 35:59

what's right for you what's right. And when we're never going to wave the flag for marriage like is no this is that easy. And we're all loved up and we never fall out. That's just ridiculous, isn't it? It's hard to be married. And it's hard. And it's nice when he goes to Bristol.

Dean Holden: 36:15

She loved it when I was working six months, because obviously she was away with the kids on her own and I was away and then after about six months you got

Danielle Nichols: 36:23

it was nice. It's like starting again. I was like, Oh, I missed him. I've missed him.

Stuart Webber: 36:28

And I was like, I'm here. That was nice for a week.

Dean Holden: 36:33

Yeah. And now obviously I'm at family homes in Manchester. So now I'm working on my old time apart from children when we're going a little going away trip long night you got a night off. But again, that's another challenge because you four and a half years, I was coming on once a week from Bristol for a weekend, maybe twice a week sometimes. So you kind of learn to kind of

Jonathan Parramint: 36:50

liberated readjusted.

Dean Holden: 36:53

That wasn't me right on the face. It's not just kind of, I just roll with it. Like

Danielle Nichols: 36:57

sometimes, you just can't stand a big sweaty person at the side of the bed when you're used to having the whole bed to yourself.

Jonathan Parramint: 37:04

But suppose you have your routine, you know when he was away and then you have to come back and fit into that.

Dean Holden: 37:09

Now it's interesting. I bang the drum now about the hypnotherapist because I'm fascinated by me to just totally Yeah. And the Wim Hof stuff. For two years I was I was a bit of a mess. And then she's She pretty much laid on the line said listen, you have to sort yourself out because yeah, which sometimes you need Don't you need to kick up the ass and, and it was the right thing to do because Yeah,

Danielle Nichols: 37:31

cuz he wasn't getting the help that he needed. And he was kind of

Dean Holden: 37:35

born it was it was an ad industry. Rooney did it. And he recently on the documentary, Wayne Rooney brilliant documentary about talks about he could never go in the dresser in 10 years. And he is true, and it is true. You know, we had to find a way to be a bit different, I think. So I

Danielle Nichols: 37:48

don't think counselling is great for box.

Dean Holden: 37:52

Nice, but she was like, oh, that must have been tough when I spoke about the ACC died. And I was like, Yeah, and it wasn't like you go for financial counseling or marriage counseling, where there's a key word about this solution, there's a solution to solve your finances out URI or you couldn't bring CeCe backs off on pissing in the wind. That's when I got into psychotherapy. And learned how the brain works and how you basically for me selfishly, how you can kind of keep it all together and systems together when the pressures on my sister and does that does Yeah, it helps some of the players as well. When they get into university the plays are they're going a little on their own little toilet cubicle before the game and they can physically physically work proven this is science. It's pretty like the Wim Hof. Yeah, it's proven but some people

Danielle Nichols: 38:35

do like a panic breathing where you're in a safe space. So you're essentially doing a lot of what is panic breathing big deep breaths when you're panicking, but you're in a nice safe comfortable place when you're doing it. So that the next time you go into an anxiety or a panic attack or anything about your brain doesn't suddenly go oh my oh no, everything's The sky is falling. Yeah, goes no, this is all right. Because it's like breathing exercises.

Jonathan Parramint: 38:59

Control. Yeah, it's not controlling you know, is that actually the Chelsea Liverpool final the League Cup, recent one. Every player took a big breath before they stepped back and I thought, Oh, that's a clear thing that they've been taught to do. But smart. It controls you more.

Dean Holden: 39:15

You're essentially Jonny Wilkinson and yeah, yeah, anchoring out Yeah, the key thing for us it's daily habits like you can just yeah, whatever dependently shoot out on the horizon. You playing a court game? You always take a penalty the day before I can see why is that the burning one penalty?

Stuart Webber: 39:30

Before isn't it? Yeah, of

Dean Holden: 39:31

course it is. So this is the thing with all the stuff that we do the meditation twice a day and all these Wim Hof and that like it's not easy sometimes you sometimes you can't be bothered you could have it but you don't get a boost from it either. It's not like a drug where you get a real you just it just keeps you kind of level. Yeah. And it becomes I think a bit of a routine really don't feel

Stuart Webber: 39:49

like going to the gym, right? You can't just go once a year. Do a 10k and go and fitness.

Danielle Nichols: 39:56

That's what I believe we should teach our children

Dean Holden: 39:59

Roxa Can you back step ups? Claiming that some of

Danielle Nichols: 40:05

giving that to yourself is brutal. Just give

Jonathan Parramint: 40:08

the cash steward just give the castle

Danielle Nichols: 40:12

an idea to me about the same kind of thing like, do something strenuous and then talking about mental health issues. And I obviously have agreed to it because it's work, but I agree.

Stuart Webber: 40:22

Kilimanjaro it'd be grateful you're not killing Jarrah for a week,

Danielle Nichols: 40:25

I don't see that you'll be listening. Right, put down your lock.

Stuart Webber: 40:30

But that comes back to the site, the wellness piece as well. So me and my wife have a massive one with educating people on kids on healthy eating. Yes. The importance of sleep. So many people aren't educated on sleep, how important that is. hydration and just being outside. Just being in the fresh air, get your heart rate up. And just having a serious look. Yeah, exactly. And that's our big thing with a charity is actually going into schools to deliver programs around something simple like going for a walk. And that's why we're having to take some this road brought up in mid Wales a little village called consum log eight miles outside of Aberystwyth is literally in the middle of nowhere. It's a mile walk to the school bus every day.

Dean Holden: 41:11

Daniel's dad lives in Conway, it goes away. Beautiful and

Stuart Webber: 41:15

it so like for me? I've said it before. You know, I got a text and I have God going you got one day, mate. That's it. This time tomorrow you

Danielle Nichols: 41:24

know about this? What did you do? Well, I'll

Stuart Webber: 41:26

definitely factor a walk in. In my day I go well, I'm having one more last walk and definitely on my loves. Somewhere beautiful.

Dean Holden: 41:33

I thought you'd be a manager for the day. No,

Stuart Webber: 41:36

I couldn't do that. Crikey I'm not stupid.

Danielle Nichols: 41:41

I think that's a good question to ask yourself when you want day left Yeah, these

Dean Holden: 41:47

podcasts I listen to the always have like the Steven Butler one has always one question at the ask every every guest in

Stuart Webber: 41:53

general during all the begets more questions

Dean Holden: 42:03

you've had all the stars on and now you have to kind of get someone at the bottom bottom levels is to kind of even

Danielle Nichols: 42:07

even That's why He's doubled.

Stuart Webber: 42:09

And I love what we're doing. As you see. We're not stupid. We see potential right. So we're thinking Loose Women? Yeah, I think a Premier League manager within two years. Which,

Dean Holden: 42:18

which odd because we were talking before about feminists am I going to lose women.

Stuart Webber: 42:25

But going back, sort of how we both felt what was on what is I suppose the overriding emotion, which would probably sum up the last sort of 10 years

Danielle Nichols: 42:37

fair survival.

Dean Holden: 42:38

The problem you can have if you don't do the work is you can get the flashback so you can go back to the day and we've only probably we've done a couple of podcasts recently because we're trying to get the awareness like you said of managers now which is brilliant and push it out there and for anyone listening to kind of think, you know, five years my kid died or whatever and I should be alright. Now everyone's telling me you will never be alright. Like that's one thing that someone told us right beginning you will never ever be okay ever again.

Jonathan Parramint: 43:02

And let's just go with it. I mean, that's advice.

Dean Holden: 43:05

And I was like what because you don't want to love that she said that though. Brilliant because you still think right okay, solution again how we're going to

Danielle Nichols: 43:12

be the person you were before your child died. It's impossible right? Cuz you can't be ever again.

Dean Holden: 43:17

We met that we met the guy Stephen who invented meningitis now 40 years ago when his son Spencer died there was nothing it was up to ease raise millions of pounds and he's got all the all the all the charity stuff that he's done. They've got the laboratory set up to do all the research. Absolutely fascinating. And another couple we went to a group route the beginning compassionate friends, which is the parents that have lost children in any circumstance. So our moms or dads that watch keep coming back every month because you made some terrible stories of car accidents and suicides. Bless and parents from Hillsboro Kotler Parish From Vail the beach, well us from write stories, but it's the only place where you're in the early days, particularly for me where you feel normal, because there's other people who kind of although experience is different about that. There's no feeling like that and nobody could really help us. I think that's probably what's helps us stay together because we've shared the experience together. I've

Stuart Webber: 44:08

always talked together about that. Yeah, he always been good with each other sharing how we feel ever made.

Dean Holden: 44:14

When we put CeCe to bed late at night, first day virality we got there we've been traveling all day delay got there really late, put to bed. Danielle woke over in the night to change a nappy. I woke up during the night and then we both woke up about seven in the morning. She weren't so well she died at 910 five past seven. So she died in three hours. What does that lead to? That could easily be why did you not do something? Because we both we've never ever done that. Because we both did what we thought was right at the time. And again, you should always be able to look after your kids you bring the child into the into this world you should least you can do is to protect them and love them. And when you don't do that, that kind of play play on you in terms of the guilt and the guilt and the fear. But you don't become a victim to it at the same time. And I sound like I'm preaching No, because it's been tough. But for where I am right now talking now, you have to overcome that. Yeah, because that's what's gonna ruin the rest of your life, you're gonna become a terrible parent, terrible husband, terrible at your job. And I'm not, we're not prepared to do that way.

Danielle Nichols: 45:15

We met somebody at Bristol, didn't we, I'm not obviously going to tell a story, but they'd lost a song. And we met them. And they were at the beginning of their journey. And we'd have been five, six years in. And it is wife couldn't speak to anyone. And he was trying wasn't it? And it's just like you say, the cliche have helped one person. I felt very alien. And I know that if somebody else had have been talking about it at the time, I'd have felt less alien at the time. Because as much as like you have these people in your life that you really love and respect when you lose a child. You know, everyone says that okay, Manchin, the truth is because you can imagine that's the truth. And you don't need to, you don't need to think about we could die. No one needs to do it. But as a person going through it, you need someone else to be going through it to understand really, we both felt

Dean Holden: 46:17

it normalizes it on it, because everyone Yeah, Dean did it Dean Smith when he saw me two weeks after CC died, and it not come out in the press at that point. And he sat there with his assistant, Rachel Kelly, and he went for the old go on to how many kids have you got? Are you married? That sort of question that you ask every player. And the two of them was that there were tears in their eyes? Because, yeah, so Well, two weeks ago and went through the store. And that's why I got so much respect for him because he didn't not not sign me on the back of that gave me a chance. And I was honest with him about the meditation was doing nearly days. And when someone says how many kids you got are out and you go, actually, we've got five but we've only got for each conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah, no one wants to be on the end of that. And you can see the other person thinking, Oh, and we shouldn't have asked that. We you should. Yeah. Even if you just saw how you doing today, or you put your arm on someone just to show we had someone at work recently that passed away. Bless him. And now you can say is they overdone? Exactly. Really thinking about you? That's it,

Danielle Nichols: 47:07

but because No, don't do it. People just say yeah, to say like, say people say what should I say? Just say, I don't know what to say? Yeah, that's a great one. Just acknowledge it. Just say yeah, that's really sad that I don't really know what to say. I didn't

Dean Holden: 47:22

want to say anything, in case you're upset, or you're already thinking about it's 24/7. Yeah, especially early on. Yeah, we found we found and I think the biggest thing for us in our relationship, which has really helped us is we've both gone along with the Wim Hof the meditation that just ramped up likes forced each other to do we've just both become really fascinated and we don't we don't do it together. It's not like you're gonna meditate in Aberystwyth when you're walking but you know when we're on our own but but it would have been difficult I think if one person would have found all that type of stuff and the other had gone into smells like constantly drinking or drugs or whatever because I think you've been ultimately be a clutch they want this so

Stuart Webber: 48:00

it's great to be reminded for that stuff as well in that because yeah, again, probably in our world I don't know if it's the same in yours. Maybe it's more creative in your work, but in our world especially. It could be a bit taboo in the past to go meditating, talking with you you know, whereas I think that is one benefit the game I think it's changed a lot the last I think even last two, three years where there's a lot more open mind Mr. Psychology, mental health, ability to show vulnerability. We are getting better at that. Yeah, slowly which is amazing you know, and I think you know, let's be honest there's too many people in the world killing themselves you know, with suicide we think like it can't happen

Dean Holden: 48:37

up it's not weren't a mate. It's like I went to school with I know five you know two so between us we know seven have done it since we left school of course I was accessible it's not it's it's just ridiculous and I mentioned about at Gmail Daniel he's like he's a exec producer at our creative guy in and he's he's involved all that remember copy I am whole convention that not Yeah. He did eat out loads of mental health issues and stuff and he did distinguish is from Brighton and yes, the guy from Brazil kicks us from Brighton. Brighton NHS Trust asked him to get this thing going for young kids what you're talking about there and he thought I'm not going to leave loads of leaflets in doctors because no one's going to. So we got the guy from his okex Who's a superstar. Yeah, and he caught this man idea about drawing a circle on your hand. And hashtagging it I am whole and it went sight millions and millions overnight. And they ended up doing a gig in they got Ed Sheeran involved in all that and he went absolutely massive in it. But just randomly that's what you're talking about the flow of life before she's a couple of people she's she's about to meet and met he's one who's gone through not the same journey, but he's understanding to that.

Danielle Nichols: 49:39

Yeah. Like me it's like

Stuart Webber: 49:42

yeah, I like like the anti Robbins stuff and things like that. And you know, the big one like thoughts become things and all this sort of stuff and it's so powerful you know when you're talking about before attracting things into your life. Yeah, massive believers. Absolutely. Yeah. The Secrets amazing. anyone speak to

Danielle Nichols: 49:58

taking control back? Yeah. If nothing else,

Stuart Webber: 50:01

and it's like I just said to people, you know, if you meet people at work, and maybe you know, we're struggling a little bit like I do this favor, just just watch it with an open mind. And try some of it. Yeah. And it's amazing how much of it becomes resonates

Danielle Nichols: 50:14

with people.

Stuart Webber: 50:15

Just open your mind a little bit.

Dean Holden: 50:17

You know, I always go in after training afternoon and the ice buffing and don't do it. And what to 12 minutes at the minute I put my music on and what to free songs. Wow, I couldn't do it for 30 seconds. A year ago. 18 months ago, your body just 11 days after I was in the Jacuzzi. I'm like, come on getting it proven. So I'll get it done like a 10 minute documentary anyway, I'm off on YouTube shoulder, come on, have a look at this. It's given the wife or given the why rather than just getting it and now they'll get in the ice bath. And then, like you said about the drink before I'll walk out on or jump back in the bucket. You've got one or two want to do and yeah.

Stuart Webber: 50:47

You know, like my wife is in love and Pilates. But you have to find a journey to find her thing which would give her our alone in peace doing this. But she had to do lots of things, join the gym, do all this sort of stuff into it. But you have to. It's about trying things like say the Wim Hof Method I you know, I've read his book and sent it to a few people as well of like, just try it might not be for you. You might find some else.

Danielle Nichols: 51:13

Absolutely. I can see the Pilates thing and the cardio, a lot of yoga. I think that's something we've done in the western world where we've disconnected this from this mind from the body. So I think that that that's a way of connecting the breath back into the because because we aren't just a walk in brain.

Stuart Webber: 51:31

Yeah. Do you feel if he doesn't do it? I notice

Dean Holden: 51:47

she's got one upstairs. Two boys do it. Only about the three year old at most three year olds just wrecked everything.

Jonathan Parramint: 51:53

And I was just thinking in the aftermath of of what happened to Cece and obviously the new sign for a new club two weeks after that. How about you at that time, Danielle? What because you're at home with the kids I assume at that point. We spoke to Gary Lineker, about this about when his son was was unwell. And he said when he went out on the pitch it was like a complete release. He did. He didn't really think about it when he was on the field. It was just a complete break. You don't really have that.

Danielle Nichols: 52:19

I was completely immersed. Yeah. And I think that that was a positive thing. So I've given advice to people who've lost children who want more children. My first piece of advice is do you want more children? And if the answer is yes, have more children. Right? Because your your heart and your arms are so empty as a mom. And that's what my children did and we probably went a bit nuts. For as excessive for Yeah, my kids saved my life 100% If I can honestly say with my hand on my heart, if she was my only child, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. Right? Well, I wouldn't give up.

Dean Holden: 53:03

Yeah. That's bad. When I spoke about the faerber alza l pad as they say in the TV, where are you going to park the federal soccer about we I was driving to Walsall up and down the mmm six an hour and a half every morning and that was a worry for me as well at the time, what we're walking on to but there was nothing that I'd left yet if I was ever totally unsure I wouldn't have gone to training of course I would have stayed with Daniel. So there's never anything that kind of makes you think that other than watching your own head so you're always in that bit of a gray area work so you're always second guessing because you don't know what tomorrow is going to bring you don't mean anything like you said before like the washer breaks or some somewhat ridiculous happens you late it's always when I'm late for summer. Gets me right me go. Anything could make a bad day become a really, really bad day. That's what I'm proud I'm so proud of because she went to the she went to the local doctors for Him to fill out the questionnaire to get some counseling and you have to it's like a school scoring point system. Do you get out of bed still? Well, we had other kids call she did. So she felt

Danielle Nichols: 54:11

depressed enough to warrant counseling on the NHS.

Jonathan Parramint: 54:17

I didn't Yeah,

Danielle Nichols: 54:19

it was. It was interesting. I think that needs to change. Yeah. She's a lovely young girl. But yeah, she had a list in front of a light you've got there. And it was a point scoring system. And she asked me each question and then she scored the points. And I always remember one of the questions was, have you had any suicidal thoughts? And I answered Yes. And she asked me to explain what they were and I did. And she said oh no, that's that's not a suicidal thought. As so much is that a mother's grief? Yeah grief of wanting to be with the child. That's Dad. I used to basically when I went to sleep at night I used to ask God defeat let me die in my sleep right before I went to sleep because I couldn't live with the pain so I'd go so I'd lie in bed at night and I'd say please god please just let me die in my sleep and I'm think think similar to that I stopped drinking because alcohol gave me bad depression the next day. So for four years I didn't drink after she died. So that was an that was easy. It's easy when it's not nice anymore. Yeah, now I can drink I'm fine. I'm not fine I'm as crazy as we all are bought for the handling it but yeah, so I remember that and just no say no that that doesn't classes like a suicidal thought. Wow. Okay. Well, no, because you weren't like putting any plan in action or

Dean Holden: 55:44

lucky we had many just trust to do about them. Now. It's managers now they funded so the kids got grief counseling, which are two boys join us with three and four when she died. We went straight back to the where we were staying in London. We'd been we'd woke up and gone to the second to the doctor she's not so well. We'll be back in an hour. My brother Daniel sister so they're married they were there with their kids so they got all the kids ready for the beach first day the other day and then we rang them after about an hour and I've said and told them what happened. So we came straight back and told the kids what happened because again we the other parents we speak to they they'll talk and every each to their own but they'll talk about gone to heaven or they're gone he's advocates to understand the next day will be really bluntly bomb like proper straight with them. And

Danielle Nichols: 56:29

we didn't even do the star in the sky thing. You know look at that star and that she sister we didn't do any

Dean Holden: 56:35

we were lucky so many jokes. Now what do they say they helped Danielle with with financially well to sorry, financial for Daniel to go to get counseling. Me were brilliant. Gordon Taylor rang me up. And I always had a bad press. He rang me up and said, Wherever, wherever you need financially for most in terms of, so I went to see the best psychotherapist in the country. She was in King Street in Manchester. So and that was life changing, I think. Yeah.

Danielle Nichols: 57:00

Yeah. What the kids got out therapy through meningitis, in schools, out therapy, that each just brilliant. And then so things like they might they might draw around their own body. And then until there's a figure on the floor on paper, and then the lady will say to them, so when you think about your sister dying, where does it hurt you in your body? And then they'll draw mainly told me they normally draw told me? Really, really good. Only six and four, were they? Some people have said to us, which made me that sad things like, Well, the good kids not be naughty at school, there must be fine. Yeah, their sisters died. They're fine.

Dean Holden: 57:42

But that's again, we're talking about the guilt before because we don't know what it's like to lose a sister or Yeah, or a granddaughter? Because I grandpa's our parents did. We both got siblings and say two of them were with us out and under either they've lost a niece. So that's the guilt as well. Yeah, kind of. It's not it wasn't our fault. Obviously, the situation we're in is impacted so many people. But the the I've been building was on in their own way. They've all evolved on the barometer to try to help us

Stuart Webber: 58:11

just to finish off and appreciate can't thank you enough how honest you've been and how brave as well to talk about it. Because you know, we can't relate to that. And we'd never sit in pretend that we can

Dean Holden: 58:22

you know, we selfishly, it is selfish. It helps us. Because just talking about yes. Because again, it's unless we're talking to each other. You can't just randomly go and talk to someone say can I talk to you about me? Can we everyday talk about your kids all winter football is done dancing, or they got a certificate at school? There's nothing to talk about is Yeah, so it's nice.

Stuart Webber: 58:40

For anyone who's listening who's going through this or something similar? What would be the one bit of advice that you could give them? If you could think back to one thing, which you know what, that really helped

Dean Holden: 58:54

reach out to someone just talk we're both on social media was not going well, she fell in love and wants to get into me about losing weight. We were lucky because I went past the local shop. And there was you know, you have all the pictures in the window one's like a cat's gone missing and there's a wheelchair for sale and a bike second handbag and there was this compassionate friends thing, little phone number. So with that, so we ended up within within two weeks on it. And just being able to go and talk to people was for me, personally was, was the Savior. On top of all the other stuff. We spoke about the work that was done, but it's initially to get out of your own head. And to be able to get stuff out there for someone to not even reply to just to listen. Again. Sounds really crazy. But sometimes when it's a bad place to be when you're in your own head in a in a dark place.

Danielle Nichols: 59:42

We suddenly know we've grieved in this country, I've realized that everybody kind of because at the beginning Kenny says well just just do nothing. Just you know, have grief. That was the worst thing for me. I kept thinking stop just telling me to sit in my house and cry. Yeah like give me something I can do or somewhere I can go don't because it's like well you grieving so you allowed to stop gallery jam was for four days so makes you feel worse

Dean Holden: 1:00:11

thing for Daniel everyone's got their own version of terrible COVID And they were people dying and all that stuff forever that was the worst thing when it being locked in your own house for homeschooling the kids with all your therapy taken away yeah into the gym go into for a coffee with your mate go into see pet we all went through a terrible time they need a purpose. Yeah, there's obviously going to be a big backlash from that. I think

Stuart Webber: 1:00:34

life needs community. Yeah, yes. And if we've learned anything the last few years it's Yes. Even the people who like their own space now you need community. Yeah, yeah, that's right. With a podcast we actually were like No, no, we'll only do it in person because I love spent two years looking for a computer screen of it buffering whether they actually listen are they you know, and pausing because they are speaking

Dean Holden: 1:00:57

brilliant on it for that reasons. Like you said the world was allowed to continue to watch their fantastic at the same time people

Stuart Webber: 1:01:03

you know, I don't think we could have had this conversation as deep as we've gone, not face to face because you can you can feel each other as you're talking, which, you know,

Dean Holden: 1:01:11

there's a pile of hours in the street and he works in Manchester so it's a 20 minute gets to but you've got a few quid like he gets the boss interest interest enjoys it and he's been doing it 15 years the same stop he walks past and he's got to know like the homeless guys nearby this guy had a brew from Greg's on there and then you'll get across the road seat and you'll get him and eat that really impacted on him not going there not mates, obviously, but do you know that you say that social yeah, having a cause? Having a cause again? Yeah,

Stuart Webber: 1:01:37

I'm gonna cause Well, first, a good way to end. Thanks so much, Danielle. Thank you very much. Good luck with both of your careers.

Dean Holden: 1:01:45

Hopefully I'll go well and Loose Women are

Jonathan Parramint: 1:01:49

the Canadian putting so much

Stuart Webber: 1:01:55

pleasure. Thanks for listening. Find out more about the charity foundation, please visit www dot summit foundation.co.uk.

Jonathan Parramint: 1:02:08

To get updates on the progress of the foundation and to follow Stuart's journey. Please follow us at the summit underscore foundation foundation is FDM