Delia Smith

In this week’s episode we get to talk to Delia Smith one of the UK’s best loved cooks.

Delia has sold over 21 million cookery books with her first one released in 1971 HOW TO CHEAT AT COOKING.
Delia and her husband Michael have been Joint majority shareholders at Norwich City Football Club for over 25 years.

In the 2017 Delia received the prestigious Order of the Companions of Honour in the Queen's Birthday Honours List. This special award was presented to Delia by her Majesty in recognition of her contribution to cooking and cookery education in this country.  The Order only ever has 65 members at any one time.  The CH followed Delia's CBE in 2009 and OBE in 1995.

On the podcast we talk to Delia about…

- Delia’s brand-new book “You Matter: The Human Solution”
- Beliefs
- Relationships
- How the generations have changed
- Delia’s journey to where she is today

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Delia Smith’s book published by @menschpublishing “You Matter: The Human Solution” by Delia Smith is out now. Available to purchase from amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Matter-Solution-Delia-Smith/dp/1912914336/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2WIG29GLRZH8T&keywords=you+matter&qid=1651069028&sprefix=you+matter%2Caps%2C59&sr=8-1

For more information on The Summit Foundation please visit our website www.thesummitfoundation.co.uk or on socials thesummit_fdn thanks for listening.

Audio production by airaphon

Transcript

Stuart Webber  00:09

Welcome to the client podcast with me, Stuart Weber. In this podcast series, we'll be interviewing guests from all walks of life, some famous, some talented, and some just with amazing stories. But what links to them is they've all overcome huge challenges and diversity in their personal lives. This podcast will run alongside my greatest challenge climbing Mount Everest, all in aid of raising funds for the summit foundation with an aim to help those who need a helping hand with their own life challenges. Welcome to the client podcast where today we've got a very special guest, Delia Smith. Delia, welcome. Hello, how are you? I'm pretty good. For those who don't know, Dylan and I work together, we've worked together for five years, I can honestly say, and I've said this to you before, and without trying to embarrass you, you're probably the best. Well, not probably definitely the best human being that I've been lucky to meet. And I've met a lot in my 38 years so far. And today, you know, we want to go into talking about how he almost shaped to become the person you are. And it's still at the age of 80. Still driving forward in terms of new ideas and your energy and your enthusiasm and your optimism and your beliefs. And you know, you've just brought out a book, there's so many things which has shaped what you become that, you know, we're sort of fascinated by really and would love to share with our listeners for their learnings, so that you know, if one person takes some from this, and it's been a success, so I mean, obviously starting at the beginning, your early career, you know, you're born in Woking. Yeah. Because

Delia Smith  01:47

my mother was evacuated because she was having a baby just when the war was going over the the city so she was evacuated to Woking. So that's my only connection with Woking. I have been back there once.

Stuart Webber  02:01

That's enough. But you worked as a hairdresser, a shop assistant and then travel agent,

Delia Smith  02:07

oh, and loads of other things and why so many jobs? Well, because I was such a failure at school. And my parents sent me off to a secretarial college and I failed that. And then they thought, well, maybe she'd be good with our hands. much good at anything else. So my grandfather actually paid a fee for me to go to a very posh Westland hairdressing salon as an apprentice. And that was really good. Because I really loved the work the community that was there. They were wonderful bunch of people. And I liked the having relationship with with people. That was the big thing. I wasn't that good as a head. So I didn't sort of stick it out till the end. But it was it was a very important part of who I am.

Jonathan Parramint  03:02

That seems to always come across with you as well about wanting to be around people. That's what was my impression of you.

Delia Smith  03:08

100%.

Jonathan Parramint  03:09

Yeah. And I'm understanding I think Stuart is, is as well as that. That's, that's what makes it but and there's there's parts of your book that really reflect that, too. So what age was that, that when you worked out? How old were you when you worked as a hairdresser?

Delia Smith  03:23

1616. Yeah.

Jonathan Parramint  03:25

And so you weren't there very long.

Delia Smith  03:27

I was two years, two years. And then I kind of moved to another hairdressing shop because I had a friend who was there. And she said, I'll let you do clients where I couldn't do them. I hadn't got didn't done the three years apprenticeship. Okay, so I moved into that. And that was, you know, again, it was quite good fun working with the people. But no, it wasn't for me. And so then I just did all kinds of things. Yeah, just look in the papers, look at jobs, see if there was a job and go and do it.

Jonathan Parramint  03:54

Was there an ambition at that point? Did you have anything that you knew you wanted to do? No, you were trying to find it at that. That stage?

Delia Smith  04:00

Yes. I mean, my mother used to say, Please don't ask me what Delia is doing. Okay. Well, it worked out. She couldn't keep up with it. Yeah. Well, Michael says, you know, like, he went to university and all of that. And he says, I went to the University of life. And that's right. I did. I met a lot of people did a lot of things. And it's good.

Jonathan Parramint  04:21

I was like that around 16 1718. I had no idea. I found it really tough actually. conversations with people asking me what I was up to. And I just thought, well, I don't really know. No, no. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  04:36

It's hard to know. But 16 I think, yeah, that's something I learned. You know, I left school as well early. With no qualifications and

Jonathan Parramint  04:43

how did you go to uni? No,

Delia Smith  04:45

no, no, I don't think we'd ever heard of uni when I was in school that I am very old.

Stuart Webber  04:51

Yeah, that wasn't for me. You if you look at people who have been great, in my opinion, whether it's artists Whether it's people who've designed things, whether it's sports people, they're all the people who get pinned up. It's normally because they've, you know, they've been given that sort of time to find their way and be creative and try new ideas. And I bet at some point, and I'm sure this happens, you, Delia? I bet at some point in your career, people said to you what you're doing that for you can't do that. But don't be so silly. Being on the telly, or you're going to write a book, who's gonna buy your book? You know, have you had much of that? If so, how did you deal with that?

Delia Smith  05:31

Well, it was a bit of a crazy idea. When I when I first wanted to do a cookbook. It was a bit bit sort of like what you, you know. But I did have a go. And I had some luck as well. I think everybody who has success has a lot of luck. And I was working with a photographer. By that time I was into food. So I was doing the cooking for photography for magazines, and advertising. And this photographer, I said, also was doing some research into the history of English cooking, which I'd got very interested in. And he said, Well, why don't you and I said, I'm just copying out all the recipes. I went to the British Museum, reading library, and started looking old cookbooks. And he said, Why don't you try make them to a book, he said, and I'll do a photograph. So we did, we did a photograph of an 18th century recipe. And then I collated the recipes together. And we we decided to send them to a publisher, but the big stroke of luck, a huge stroke of luck, that he went to a party and met a literary agent. And he told her about it. And she said, Send dealer in to see me. That was it. You know, once I met her, she took she took it on completely. And she hiked this thing around various publishers, and they all turned it down. But by that time, you know, she'd got very interested in my passion and what I wanted to do, and she just saw one day, there was a newspaper, The Daily Mirror, which was the most powerful newspaper then. And they were starting a color magazine, and just rang them up and said, Have you got a cookery writer? And they said, No. She said, Can I send someone? So and so what happened? The agent rang the editor of the it was a color magazine by the Daily Mirror, she rang the editor, and he said, No, we haven't got anybody. And she sent me to see him. And he said, What have you written, and I said nothing. And I think that was another big stroke of luck. And he's a great friend now. And what he said to me was, okay, that doesn't matter. Just go away and write me to 600 word pieces. And I'll see what I think. Or he actually, then called me back and said, You know, I'd like to offer you the job, which was amazing. I did stay up all night, writing and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. And I remember that very well and watching the dorm come up, and still having another goal and another goal and another goal. And so when I went to see him, he said, I'd like to offer you the job, which was a mazing Cabernet. And then after that, he said, but I won't be dealing with the cookery section, I'd like you to meet my deputy editor who is dealing with the cookery section. And that was Michael,

Stuart Webber  08:26

in terms of meeting Michael, you know, we always hear every great man has a great woman behind them. And I think I always think we've your Michael. And Michael's career himself never gets talked about enough because of how his personality is. And you know, he's understated, isn't it? It's one of his superpowers, I think. But he's an incredible man to have behind you as any. Because credible, I say to everyone, honest to God, he is an encyclopedia. I think he's actually a human Google, that if you if you could type into him, and ask him anything, I'm gonna test this out. He knows it's incredible. But, I mean, that must have also changed your life. The day you met Michael and fell in love. And we're together and you know, because you are a team, aren't you?

Delia Smith  09:14

Yes, definitely. So I was handing my copy into Michael. And Michael was inviting me out to dinner and straight away. And then when we soon became friends, he understood absolutely, that I hadn't had much education that I couldn't spell. I couldn't punctuate. So even though, you know, I'd got the job on my ideas and what I given, you know, the writing wasn't I still had that ability to communicate. But Michael, I used to put my copy in and he would put all the the right you know, spelling and the right to ah, yeah, so it was a partnership like that when

Jonathan Parramint  09:55

it sounds like immediately Yeah, yes. That's lovely. Yeah, it was,

Stuart Webber  09:59

um, when you just been writing your book? I remember you telling me a story. I think you're close to it wouldn't have been a few months ago that you don't you move on to the next chapter once Michael had given you the nod. Yeah. And what was his line? He's just say,

Delia Smith  10:12

he would sit there and he'd read it. And then I think come, and then he'd read it again. And, and then he's handed it back to me. So, okay, carry on. Okay, carry on, it's very necessary for me to say, at this point, that I couldn't have done anything I've done without Michael. You know, I didn't have any confidence or self belief or anything. And he was like, a real sort of strength behind me in everything.

Stuart Webber  10:41

How do you think he gave up to you?

Delia Smith  10:44

Just giving me encouragement. When I said, you know, I'd love to be able to really write. He said, Well, there's only one way to write and that is, you've got to have something to say. He's not when people sit down, and they've got to think of what to say. He said, But if you've got something to say, then the writing sort of come secondary. And so that was a very good lesson. Yeah, for me. So the more research I did, the more I found out, the more I wanted to say and share it.

Stuart Webber  11:13

What fascinates me and my wife and I talk about it is sometimes you know, we'll be out for dinner with you or, you know, wherever gone to a show or something like that, and we'll be walking to the car. And you'll still be holding hands. And it's always an amazing thing. Because, you know, marriage and life and everything is tough. Yeah. How have you been an kept as strong as you are? That after? almost 50 years, it is 50 years, 50 years of marriage, which is longer than some people live? How have you kept

Delia Smith  11:49

that? Well, I just, I've just feel I've been enormously lucky. And that, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose. You know, Michael, as you, as you've pointed out, is quite sort of quiet person. And I'm very noisy person. And I think that sort of works quite well. And we've got things that we are the opposite. Like he's a night person, he's at his best at night, and I'm useless at night, but fantastic in the morning. So all these things sort of go together and sort of make something and not just he's been a wonderful friend as well. You know, I think if you've got in your marriage, you know, for your friends. I'm not saying it's all you know, whatever they say better roses. Because it's all there are, as you say, there are difficult parts. But I think as you get older, you get less concerned with things that you are concerned about when you're young. I think getting old is quite nice, actually. So you're not sort of like I used to be. I used to be when I was much younger. You know, I'd be going crazy if I put something new on and he never noticed it. But then I now know he never ever will.

Stuart Webber  13:09

Don't take it personal. Yeah, yeah, that's

Delia Smith  13:11

it. That's it. Really? Yeah. I never will.

Jonathan Parramint  13:15

Can I ask about your first meeting? Stuart and Delia, how, how was that? I can remember had it. Had you already? Had you already got the job at that point? Or was that part of the process?

Stuart Webber  13:25

No, it's part of the process. It was Barnsley at home in the championship, and it was on a Saturday, and I would add the game was at Huddersfield. And we'd played on the Friday night away at Bristol City. And we were third or fourth in the league. And we got beat for nil that night. were horrific. And I remember driving across and I got here to the stadium as a hotel at the stadium. Like three four in the morning and yeah, I met Delia Michael, up in the offices here. That that day. Yeah. Just before the match just before the match. Yeah. Obviously went well. Yeah, from my side. Five, you know, I think when it first the opportunity first came up to to speak to dealer Michael in Norwich. i My first reaction was no, because I was good club with a great owner. And was very sad, to be honest. And it's my wife who'd done some previous work here. said, no, no, you just need to go meet them. And I got to say she's right. Because you know, I'm very much on gut. You know, you have to have a lot of process in life as well. I get that. But I will always go with my gut feeling and and when I've not gone with my gut feel I've genuinely been wrong. Whenever I go my gut, I've generally been right and I knew probably within two minutes of being in dealer Michael's company. The I can learn a lot from these because that was important for me as well at that stage was it wasn't just about leaving and going to a different club. It was I need to get better I need to learn And I sat in a room with two people who I felt like, I've got a lot to learn from these. And I believe they're going to give me a lot without even knowing that they given it to me just lend an experience. Because how open they were and honest, and I value honesty massively. And they both were again, Mike was really quiet for the first 10 minutes before I said something wrong already, because he didn't talk. But then I got to a subject, which he was passionate about, which was talking about Wales. And you know, and then the same deal his mum, as well shouldn't say, unfortunately left us now. But she's, she's Welsh, and you know, and then you get talking about that. And, you know, and then, yeah, it was a special day, though, because it's like, I'll never forget that day for the rest of my life, because you meet in to people who've become ultimately friends, but to people who are so respected and what they've done. Yeah, that was, for me. Unbelievable day. It's like the same for you, Delia? Yes, it

Delia Smith  15:53

was a no brainer. And it was very, very, very big moment for us, because we had been through a few difficult times. And that was the beginning of me thinking, what was wrong in football is having one person at the top and one person, you know, handling everything. And it's just doesn't work. And I desperately wanted to have a director of football, as well as a head coach. And there are a lot of people who said, Oh, no, no, no. That doesn't work for many, many reasons. But I was absolutely, like, in my guts, I was actually convinced that we had to do to do it that way. And I can't believe our luck. I mean, I can't believe that. We've got the best one in the market.

Jonathan Parramint  16:53

And also, what comes across for me, I'm a fan of the club. But aside from that, is it so nice, the relationship is so nice, which goes beyond your jobs, your roles, is that there's an actual lovely relationship there between you Michael Stewart and Zoey? Yes. And I think that says a lot about this place and this club, that we're doing this interview in now. It just, it, you can just see it, it comes through. And I think it's, it's great and not not to not to make the podcast to knowledge heavy. But I do think that I'm not proud to be a fan of that. Because it's great to have is you just want and also in my in my role in my job. I've always just like you just want to work with nice people. That's what I've I've turned down things before because I think well, you're a bit rude to that person there. And I think well, you'll be rude to me, you'll treat or you'll treat me badly. You just want to work in an environment where people are just nice and respectful. And it really comes really comes across. So

Stuart Webber  17:54

I'm very passionate about football. And football clubs, especially, are here for forever. You know, we're all passing through. And I see my job. And I've only ever seen this wherever I was a Liverpool wolves Huddersfield here, is when I leave, it's got to look better than when I found it. And ready for the next person to make it better. Again, we find along the way, we'll make mistakes. Yeah, of course. But that's part of our learning. But as long as they're always honest mistakes, I always say to my staff, it's about you can make mistakes, we've got to be honest. So don't make mistake because you've cut a corner or you've been lazy, or you couldn't be bothered making mistake, because you've tried something and it hasn't worked. That's fine, because that's how we develop. You know, it's like the fella who invented the light bulb, you know, we found 900,000 reasons where he's not to do it before he found the way to do it. So I think it helps when you share them, then values dealer as well.

Delia Smith  18:49

Yes, I do too. And I think that, you know, going back to my childhood and failing the 11 Plus, whenever I've been asked to go and speak to young people, which I have sometimes I always say, just never be afraid to fail. Because if you're not afraid to fail, you can do anything and do anything at all.

Jonathan Parramint  19:11

What sort of student were you at school? And was that was that fear of failure at? Did you feel that at school? Because I know I did when when I was I think it was something to do with I think I thought back to this recently actually, I was talking to a friend about it. When we got something wrong at primary school, they would point and will wasn't everyone it was just a certain teacher and I thought it and it bought all the attention on you. So it bought all the failure on you. And you think well, that's not a good start is it? I was how could you know you all these things stick will you pick up all these things as you go along? Was that did you feel that because from moments like that, I think I felt a fear of failure, which I think hopefully is sort of on its way out. But did you was that similar for you?

Delia Smith  19:56

No. Okay, I didn't care Great, so I didn't mind. But my parents were so desperate for me to do well at school. And so failing the 11 Plus was a huge thing. Because it wasn't only that I'd failed, you know, for myself, but I'd failed for them. And that was the hardest thing. Okay. You know, I didn't work hard at school, but maybe that was, I don't know, in a way. I wasn't aware of it, but maybe sort of in my deep psyche. Maybe I was learning that, you know, you're not going to get anything if you don't work. Yeah, it's still gonna happen. Yeah. And when my mother went to the parents evening, they said, You Delia Smith's mom? Yes, she does nothing but play around all day. My mum said, and what do you do? And I was cheering in the background. But the thing is that, no, I just do feel when I when I started to become successful. I knew other people. I knew one particular person who was better than me. She was better at cooking better recipes, better everything. But she wouldn't have a go to be on television or to do something herself. Because fear. Yeah. And I think that's such a shame. Because if you if you really can, but you see, going back to the education. I mean, I agree with Stuart, I feel very strongly that, you know, children are not educated into life. They're educated into knowledge, but not into life. Yeah, I agree. And I would like to see lessons in school on how not to be afraid, you know, a failing, it's okay to fail. It's what you've just said, you know, the light bulbs, it's okay. Because there's something else you can learn and all the time. And all those kinds of things. We're not they're not taught at school like racism. Yeah, they should be taught about that they should be taught about ego ism.

Jonathan Parramint  22:02

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that. It's really, I agree with all that. By the way, I read a book recently that said that you a lot of the key things that you pick up along the way you already know, by the time you're eight years old, and I was just think the younger that you can start lessons like this, the better. And I don't know what age kids start school. Now. I don't know about your five. Yeah. So key, just do it immediately.

Stuart Webber  22:24

Young people, and kids are sponges, they take it in, they're clever enough. They work things out quicker. It's been it's amazing for me having a five year old watching that. And it makes you aware, but what it also does, it's you can shape them, you can help them you can let them know that you can achieve amazing things. You know, if you want to be an astronaut, you can be an astronaut. It's difficult. If I turn around and say I want to be a basketball player and play in the NBA, that's probably tough. I've probably missed a boat at my age. But when you're five, anything's possible.

Delia Smith  23:01

That's very, very profound.

Stuart Webber  23:03

Go on to the ego dealer because at summit we want to talk to you about because it's summit that we spoke about a lot. You call it the I think the death of man. We've both seen it. Countless times grip. I got to say men, I'm not sure I'm yet to meet a woman who's done it and but you would have done foot. But yeah, it's it's actually horrible to watch, isn't it? When you you see someone who you know, is a good guy. And how the ego grips and when they almost start making decisions, which actually make them worse. And don't help them because it's the ego was taken over, isn't it?

Delia Smith  23:44

Yeah, I have my own theory that I can't quite get backed up. Not quite, but almost. But I really do believe that the ego is actually the result of a lack of self belief. So the ego is or ego ism, the ego itself is a good thing. Ego means me myself, it's fine. But ego ism. I think it begins with that. It begins with not feeling good enough. feeling threatened or by other people or anything. And then you've got to build yourself up. Yeah. Because you don't believe in yourself. It's your job to build yourself up. Yeah. And make yourself you know, and then it gets a grip and then it grows. And it's, you know, I do think is the most destructive thing. But I I think the opposite what I would try to teach. If I was in charge of the curriculum at school, I'd like people to be taught their own value and their own worth and that's why I've written a book all you matter, because that's what I want. I want if every human person could understand their own complete, unique contribution they have to give, then the ego drops by the wayside.

Stuart Webber  25:12

Do you think, dealer it's got worse now than what it was? So and the reason I ask that question is, we live in a world where social media seems to be negatively impacting people's lives, where they're seeing everyday people with things that they maybe haven't gone, you know, whether that's a beautiful woman on her arm, a sports car, the best clothes, the best holiday, whatever, whatever. And I think it seems to be making society in general, and this is a generalization, a bit angry and unhappy, because maybe they haven't got them things. Do you think it is worse now to know? Or has this always been an issue?

Delia Smith  25:53

I think I probably is worse now. But I think, you know, inequality is you touched on it there that the inequality of people and the divide is so enormous. And also I think, you know, you get to sort of fashion things like, you know, to be famous, there's now this ambition to be famous, you know, which is

Jonathan Parramint  26:18

a job of its own. Yeah. Yeah.

Delia Smith  26:20

Yeah. Like, it's something that's going to bring you Yeah. And people have such a false image of what it is, you know, and it does go back to how you're educated, though, unless we can show people they their own worth, unless we can communicate to them their own worth. And also, all these influences. You're saying up too late. But after that, maybe that's where all the influences start coming in, you know, this is bad, or this is good, or, and you sort of grow up. And you're influenced by everything, by school, by teachers, by advertising by, there's all these influences coming in. And in how I've said it in my book, I'm at the risk of being boring. The answer is no yourself. That's the answer is no yourself. To me. That is what would put the world to rights. You know, the world is in chaos. Yeah. But if everybody knew their own worth, then immediately snap like that they'll know the worth of everybody else. And it's this unity of people that is going to make us healthy. It's by being you, united.

Stuart Webber  27:34

And I've got Sadie, obviously, I've read your book, and I've recently been to Tanzania to to climb Kilimanjaro. And it was incredibly humbling. They're the people so the people there, their average salary is $700 a year. And you're being guided up this mountain with these is man, it was a real man who was so proud of their country. proud of what they can wait to show you wait to see this tonight. Wait to see the stars tonight. Wait to see this. Wait to see tomorrow we're going to walk up this rock face is going to be incredible. You'll see this waterfall and and their passion for their country and their people. And how intrigued they were by football. They love football. So you know the most of them are Arsenal fans bizarrely, but they were obsessed about talking about football, talking about our lives. But fundamentally, you had people there whose job was to carry toilets up a mountain, set the toilet up, clean in the next morning, climate further up the mountain, you had people whose job was to cook people's job to put tents up. And they were the happiest people I've ever met. If you've put your finger on it happy. I sort of sat on the plane coming home. As you do reflection going, what I learned so obviously learned a bit of the mountain blah, blah, blah, blah. But I've come back and said to my wife, I said, we've got to take people to see that. We've got to take people to not see the mountain necessarily. But to see how people who compared to us have gotten nothing. But they are definitely the happiest people I've ever been around with for a week and self confident. reassured. Happy, still ambitious, proud. All of these things that I think we probably all wake up every morning wanting to be they are and it was incredibly humbling. They didn't worry about what we've got in the western world of you know, cars or houses or we go on holiday they they were like, like to hear about it. But they were like yep, we live in paradise. And look what we've got. We can look at that every night that stars and beautiful nature and be around nature. You know, and How you know, and they have a saying Akuna Matata, which means no worries, and that's how they live a life. And I learned so much from that. And I wish that I almost wished that some people could, you could put them in the world of having everything for a day. So they realized, Oh, that's not the answer is it? It's actually the people around you. It's, you know, having a purpose. I think having a cause is big. You know, it's, you know, have is a very big one. It's, it's huge, but I think I wish and pray actually, that people can stand that doesn't have to mean wealth and fame. He can have an unbelievable cause. And, yeah, be a dental nurse, or walk dogs every day. You know, it doesn't have to be about your bank balance or whatever, then things don't equate to. Happy so happiness. Yeah,

Jonathan Parramint  30:58

there's a quote actually, the actor and comedian Jim Carrey has one saying, I wish everyone could be rich and famous. So they knew that that wasn't the answer. Yeah. So they could just go out and discover that if only they could just have a week of finding that yet. Yeah. Yeah. With that, though, and the world that you the world that you guys are in with the football club. And with your climb Mount Kilimanjaro and talking to these people has that made you reflect on how you react to certain tough times within the game, for example, and keeping things I'm not saying that you things are out a perspective, but does it kind of make you even more aware of, of your reactions to certain things like a bad result? Or?

Stuart Webber  31:44

Yeah, I think I've actually got better with that over time. I think when when we lose or something goes wrong, it's it's always a sense of responsibility. If you've let people down, you know, if it's a home game, there's 27,000 People who you've affected potentially their night not being great. And you feel a sense of responsibility for that. And that's tough. I think if I ever loses, as well, in this job, I think that's a problem. I think, if the day comes, you don't care, it's time to do something else as well. But also, it's it's always about perspective and context. For sure. It's in football, especially, it's about learning that you lose. That's part of the processes. Yeah, every team does. You know, even the best teams lose. But it's how we react to that. And you know, I've learned a lot again, from dealer Michael about, you know, remaining humble, being respectful. I am a bad loser. I know I am. And I struggled to talk some times when it's when it's gone wrong. Certainly for half an hour or an hour. I need that moment alone. But yeah, I think it's about putting things into perspective, sort of constantly. But also, understanding yourself begins back to that. So I understand myself that I'm not good company, if we've got beat. Yeah. But I know that. So I will take myself off. And I will have a moment to myself. And, you know, so I know that I don't try and pretend it's, it's not great.

Delia Smith  33:15

There's something beautiful about it, because it's caring. It's really, really deeply caring.

Stuart Webber  33:20

Yeah. And it's feeling like say, letting people down. I know how hard in our world our players, our staff work, every single one of them to put on an event, which is a game. Yeah. And the sacrifices they've made all of our staff and players to get where they've got to, and how much it means and that. Let's say that, that hurts. But I never it's never a pain, about myself about Oh, does that mean I'm going to get sacked or this isn't good for? For me, people are going to think I'm rubbish. Because that's something I care about, actually. It's always thinking about other people. You know, I always say, like, we've our head coaches, and that, oh, I just want to make it better. I just wish I could do your job here for a day and you go home, I'll do the media. And yeah, I'll speak to the boys and all the problems that we've got to deal with. You just go home and have a rest. But you can't and that's where it's hard is because you just want it sometimes you feel or I feel completely helpless. And that's, we feel that too horrible. Yeah. And you're saying you say to me all the time.

Delia Smith  34:22

Can we do anything? Yeah, everything we could do.

Stuart Webber  34:26

Yeah, and it is but then the great thing is there's always tomorrow. Yeah, and the beauty of our industry is there's always another game there's always another season. There's always another referees performance. There's always another striker, there's always another player's coach. There's always another sporting director. It's so you get over it. Yeah, cuz you have to, you have to as well.

Jonathan Parramint  34:47

I think that's where I'm at as a fan actually, is my kind of my first game here when when I was five. And I've had a season ticket I think for 17 or 18 years or something. And my reaction to defeat to change massively, because now you sort of learn that it's a never ending game. So you think well, yeah, it might not go so great one year, but then we'll have a good one next year. And that will continue long after I'm not around. So you just enjoy the I come with my mum. And I just think we'll enjoy that, you know, that's part of the experience, but as your reaction to defeat daily have changed over the years, or is it? Does it mean remain fairly consistent?

Delia Smith  35:26

Yes. I just, I just have to keep reminding myself, you know, all the time that it's called sport. Yeah. And it's just very hard. You know, to remember all the time that it's sport. But I do think the the big thing you've already said is, there's another one. Yeah, there's another one around the corner. And I think if I see a five year old kid sitting on the terraces in tears when the whistles gone, and we've lost, I think that little boy is really lucky because he's learning about life. Yeah, no little kids who come to football, they learn about the hard times. But they also learn about the extreme joy. And it's such a good grounding for life to bring children to football. And if I could get every child on the streets to a football match, I would because they wouldn't need to be on the streets. Yeah. But knives, if they could come to a football and experience community and everybody, you know, being sort of glued together, you know, joined together.

Jonathan Parramint  36:34

Yeah, that's a good point as well, because I think we talked about this recently, actually on the phone is that you're never lonely at a football match with something that we spoke about. I went to a game recently at QPR my friends a fan, and, and there was a bloke behind us who came on his own and didn't know the people around him. But by the 10th Minute, you have Well, you already have a mutual interest. So it doesn't matter.

Delia Smith  36:58

Yes, nowhere else. I don't know where else that happens. And my agent actually said to me, she said, why was widowed? She's been here a few times. Yeah, sure. If I was widowed, I joined a football club straightaway. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  37:11

Make sure it's Norwich. She lives a bit for transport.

Delia Smith  37:16

Yeah, yeah. But you know, she saw that she actually saw that. And I think it's quite indescribable. And, you know, people outside they don't have no idea what a beautiful game is and what it is to be a football supporter.

Jonathan Parramint  37:33

I feel sorry, sometimes for people who are not into it, because it's actually not about I don't I don't hinge everything on it's different for me as a fan. And I know there are different types of fans, because there are some people who if we lose on a Saturday, it ruins a weekend. That's that's not the case. But it's the whole it's the whole event. You know, it's go it's going with my mom, it's, it's that I went to a game here two or three years ago. And I think in the 75th Minute, we were three nil down. And forest. Yeah. And we drew three, three at the end. And it was absolutely insane. I think I think back to I think back to games like that more than I do when we won at Wembley in 2016. I think that is you can't there's no drama like that either. You can't you you literally cannot write stuff. You watch the best dramas that have ever been. And you never top a 96 minute equalizer. Or winner. Yeah. You remember it forever. Yeah, you do. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  38:34

I remember games as a kid watching and some of my most vivid memories of moments in a football match. Whether that's playing Yeah, little kid, or watching. And because let's say you can't. You don't get that in a film, or a TV series or whatever. We don't sit here talking about a drama from 20 years ago. But let's say you're talking about full much. Yeah, from 20 years ago, I was there moment. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, dealer just to finish off, because we appreciate how much time we've had. But one area we'd like to touch on is about religion. Yes. And obviously talk about in the book about spending an hour a day, you're reflecting practice in religion. And I also think it's interesting because Michael isn't religious. So could you talk to us a bit about not so much what religion but almost why, and how that's helped you over the years and how maybe it can help others?

Delia Smith  39:31

Yes, I'm just sort of make a small correction there. That nothing in the book is about religion. No, I have I've written a book for people who don't have religion. Yeah. So I've kept religion completely out of it. But what I'm saying in my book is that you have to spend time. You have to have stillness and silence in your life and in your day. And I mean, you found that from another book. Didn't you from the fire them? Yeah, yeah. Which is again doesn't mention religion. So yes, I have a very, very deep belief. But I also think that the depth of belief is, is deeper than religion. Okay. So a religion, I have great respect for all religions. And I've, you know, I've been a Catholic for years. And I have great respect for all the religions. But I think that's only half the story. Really, I think that the real depths is just for me. It's impossible. Totally impossible, out of the question. That there's this huge, never ending universe. And there's this tiny little speck of cosmic dust. And it's got theaters motorways. People flying off to other planets, and human life is sensational. It is unbelievable. And so I just can't think human life when the scientists say Oh, well, you know, it's just a cosmic accident. Yeah, you know, a few little things happened. And no, no, not a cat in Hell's chance. For me, if I look at you, and I look at you, what I see is something amazing, something incredible that I can't see anyone. You know, every person is different. Yeah. How does that happen? Yeah. How is it? In in since the beginning, the dawn of human life has no face ever been the same as any other face? Yeah. And now and now, you know, we've always done thumbprints. Now we're doing, you know, eyes. Nobody's got the same eyes. They can do it at the airport. And yeah, yeah. So I guess. And I think we just take it so much for granted. Yeah, what we are and who we are. And once we know who we are, all of us, then we can do anything.

Jonathan Parramint  42:11

Are you religious to it?

Stuart Webber  42:13

No, I don't practice it. But I do have beliefs. And I spend time reflecting on them beliefs. But what I find about religion is, again, the same theater, every religion, but is, you know, when you read, whether it's quotes from the Bible, or whatever, a lot of it is common sense and hard, hard to argue with. So, you know, we at the club, have a club chaplain, and you know, I spend a lot of time with him. A lot of our players spend a lot of time with him religious or not, because what he talks about, and promotes his community, is kindness. Looking out for your neighbor, caring for others. So I don't see how any of that can be a bad thing. Yeah. And I also believe, I believe there is someone who is looking out for you. And no, and I haven't worked out yet who I think that is, but I genuinely believe that there is someone there who is watching over you and guiding you, and, you know, helping you make decisions that you make checking you on certain decisions as well. However, that's because I also take time to reflect and maybe that's just my mind, send me well, I need to work that out. I haven't worked it out yet. But I also believe there has to be something after this. Yeah, as well. I believe that the people that we love or the animals that we love, and that are with us forever. I genuinely believe that I believe I was very tight to my grandparents who died when I was quite young. And I believe they watch over me. I do I believe that they're on Yeah, I can't prove it. I can't say to you is me having a selfie with them two years ago, even though they died when I was a kid, but I believe that they're, and they come straight to my thoughts when things are bad or when things are good. And I don't I don't believe that. That's a fluke or whatever. But I also respect that people who don't, because it's your own belief, but I think it's also about what helps you be the best version that you can be if that's by having a belief in something brilliant. If that's by not fine, brilliant. But you know, it's it's what works for you, but there has to be something there because otherwise I believe there's so many examples in life which don't make sense. So why is it when you think about you want something to happen? And it happens for no real reason. Why does it happen? So why is it you hear from somebody when I was just thinking about them? They just rang me It can't be coincidence all the time. Can be coincidence once twice. They like the cost can like of course it can be coincidence, but I don't believe that can be a coincidence all time yeah has to be someone who or something which is connecting you with. Guy he'd been thinking about whatever your mom a lot today. Yeah, she just rang. Yeah, it's weird. Why did you ring me? outside ring for chat? Wow. How's that happen then? Yeah. Unless there is something bigger than us. And that's that's my

Jonathan Parramint  45:21

well I'm the same really? I think it's a huge comfort those types of feelings it's meant to be. Yeah, I think so I think it'd be really hard to not have that I'm the same with the grandparents my mind died when I was young. I'm lucky to have both parents still, but I just think it feels so such a struggle without those comforts. I'm I'm pretty much you summed up exactly where I'm at with it actually knew to do

Delia Smith  45:54

that. For me. I think my my sort of church background if you like, did give me I mean, I have been a passionate I've been passionate about the Scriptures. And see, I don't think the Bible, I just think all these stories, all these people, you know, who wrote that song? Yeah, who actually sat down and wrote that song. Yeah. And, and I think that that's the part of, of, like, organized religion that I think is beneficial. But I just think we've got to look at it for what it is not, you know, what I call by? You know, it says this, and it says that, and you can anybody can take a little bit out of it. Yeah. But when you look at the Sistine Chapel, and you see that wonderful Michelangelo, where, you know, the hand of God is just, yes. Just about to touch the hand of humanity. I just think that is that is it really? Yeah.

Stuart Webber  46:55

Well, I think that's a poignant way to end, Delia. Thank you. Thank you. I have your I mean this in a polite way, years of insight and insights and knowledge, how you've shared them. And again, been honest, we were very grateful for that. I've learned a lot I'm sure you have. Yeah. And our listeners well, and yeah, thank you for your support. Good luck with your book.

Delia Smith  47:18

Thank you. I've learned from you too, as well.

Stuart Webber  47:21

Thank you. But no, we're excited. So it's, you matter The Human Solution. It's our March, the March the third. And it's going to be available bookshops online,

Delia Smith  47:34

etc. And I've done an audio version as well,

Stuart Webber  47:37

on an audio version.

Jonathan Parramint  47:38

Did you read it? Did you do the audio? Great. How long does that take? Is that?

Delia Smith  47:42

Three, four hour sessions? Okay. No, we're supposed to take but the last one took a bit longer. But what happens is you have a director, which you would know about. And what happens is, you know, he was so good. This guy. No, no, read that sentence again. No, you tripped up on the word there. You do you missed you pronounce you, you know, and it was so easy, because he was there. Yeah. Couldn't have done it. If you left me alone to read. I couldn't have done it. could not have done it. But

Jonathan Parramint  48:15

I did it. Well, it's a great result. I loved it. I flew through the book. It was great. Good deal. Thank you very much, so much. Thank you. That was great. What a lovely woman.

Stuart Webber  48:28

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm fortunate enough to work with her pretty much every day. So I suppose I'm quite interested to see what what you thought of?

Jonathan Parramint  48:37

Well, there were certain things that I expected because I think purely because I've met her before I knew she was going to be sweet and kind and, and a caring person as she is. But I suppose because we did the interview actually at the football club. And the owner, She's the owner of the football club or the co owner of the football club with her husband, Michael. You expect somebody like that, especially in the modern day at the modern game with these rich billionaire owners. You maybe expect someone to come in who's a little bit more stern and and business minded and a bit more ruthless but she just nothing like that at all. She I thought she was when we weren't recording she was talkative and funny and interested in this is a big thing for me as well was that I got the impression that she was interested in she No, no, she well, she doesn't mean no me anywhere near as well, but she's interested. And she strikes me as the sort of person that that goes for that everyone. You know, after after we did the interview, there was a guy who works at the football club. She was asking him about his his job, whether he enjoyed it about a bit about his life. And it just strikes me that she does that every day with all sorts of different people. She's just a real. I'd describe her as a massive people person. I thought she was brilliant.

Stuart Webber  49:59

Yeah. That's, that's definitely fair and a good, good way of summing up. I've got to say she can be ruthless as well, there is that side to her. Fortunately, I haven't been on the receiving end just yet. But did you expect to, you know, 80 years old just written a book to be as ambitious as she sort of still comes across? Or did you feel that

Jonathan Parramint  50:23

I didn't really see it as ambition. I'm not saying that. She isn't ambitious, because I'm sure she still is. But I sort of took it more as someone who is 80 years old, now, there's still things that she wants to achieve. And she just is someone that I see he wants to get everything done. She wants to do everything that she can do. The book was a real labor of love. She'd been working on it for ever since you know, you know, five years. And it doesn't feel like something that she in fact, I think she said this before we recorded she said, I just I just wanted to do it, how well it does, doesn't really seem to bother her. But it was just something that she really needed to do. And that's an attitude that I think she has in other areas as well. Well, I wouldn't describe that, as I'm sure she is ambitious. I think most people or I hope most people are, but I did definitely see it as someone who has already lived a long life and wants, there's still so much more that she wants to achieve, which I suppose is ambition. But you know, we'll see what I mean. It's, it's not a ruthless ambition to, for her book to do really well and be at the top of the Amazon charts. It's more, I really want to do this. So I'm just going to do it put it out, and how well it does doesn't matter to me, which actually, in terms of creativity. And in my background in TV, I think is, is the best approach to that sort of thing. If you start worrying about how well something's going to do it, you'll get bogged down, you probably never even finish what you're working on, because you're worried about the reaction to it. So I think actually, her approach to creativity is absolutely bang on.

Stuart Webber  52:06

Yeah, I think it's you can't just focus on the end result, you know, it's about a process. And it's the same with the charity, you know, we can't be just focused on we must hit this many numbers, or this many viewers or raise this much amount of money, etc, etc, it's got to be, know that we're going off for a cause that we passionately believe in. And what the end result of that will be will be. Because I think you're right. And I think it's definitely the same in my industry as well. If you set too many targets, and they become unrealistic, or you have a setback, you then go while you're doing that for the wrong reason. It's like people who chase fame and money, you know, they often don't get it, because they've chasing it for the wrong reasons. Whereas about some of them things will come as a byproduct of being good at what you do and and passionate about what you do. And I think she's certainly that person as well. She's obviously become mega famous. I'm sure. pretty rich, you know, when you sell 22 million books, which is what she sold in a career so far, coupled with what her Michael have done other things. But if you see where they live and the humble life that they live, it's very, very apparent that they don't do things for money. They do things because they love them. And it's because it's a cause. And it's and often it's they do things because they believe it's the right thing. And the book, I remember asking dealer, why are you writing a book about a topic, which is very different to her previous writing. And she goes, because I've got some things to say and share. And I think and I and that's really important to her. And that's why it will be a success. Because when you read the book, because we've both done it you realize it's written by someone who's passionate about that subject, not because it's someone trying to sell it. It's and that's why it'd be successful because the best in my opinion, the best work of authors and films and TV shows are often people who they you know, they talk from the heart and from somewhere a little bit deeper than just trying to make it to be famous or money. So yeah, fascinating day.

Jonathan Parramint  54:19

Well, we really appreciate it Delia's time. If you want to spend more time learning about the foundation, please visit www dot the summit foundation.co.uk or catch us on social media by searching the summit foundation. Thanks for listening