Rio Ferdinand

In our first episode, we talk to Rio Ferdinand, former professional footballer. Rio achieved six premier league title wins during his time at Manchester United and played 81 times for England between 1997-2011. He was a champion’s league winner and part of the squad for three FIFA World Cup tournaments. Rio is now a tv pundit for BT Sport. 

On the podcast, we talk to Rio about…

- Growing up in East London
 - Racism
 - Moving from London to Leeds
 - Tough decisions
 - Social media
- The modern player

For more information on The Summit Foundation please visit our website www.thesummitfoundation.co.uk or on socials thesummit_fdn thanks for listening.

Audio production by airaphon

Transcript

Stuart Webber  00:09

Welcome to the climb podcast with me, Stuart Weber. In this podcast series, we'll be interviewing guests from all walks of life, some famous, some talented, and some just have amazing stories. But what links to them is they've all overcome huge challenges adversity in their personal lives. This podcast will run alongside my greatest challenge climbing Mount Everest, all in aid of raising funds for the summit foundation with an aim to help those who need a helping hand with their own life challenges. First in view we'll be sitting down with Manchester United and England legend Rio Ferdinand referred man welcome to the client podcast X professional footballer pundit, Husband, Son Father, being a father is the most important of those jobs. Yeah, being a father a good husband

Rio Ferdinand  01:04

I think a slice as you get older your priorities change a bit Have you ever thought about being the best footballer I could be? I said I was all my all my life. That's what I wanted to be the best of luck to be best of luck be. And you get to a certain point, you have kids and stuff and you think actually, it's a little bit more life showing. Yeah, you lose a game. And it ain't the end of the world. Because you've got to go and smarter to kids and put a face a little bit even though you are feeling rock bottom. And the results gonna get sure you've had a stinker. And then you get a little toddler running towards you or calling you daddy and it just like everything. You think, Okay, leave out the front door. Go in. Put your slippers on and just mold into Benedetta again. Yeah, they don't care. They don't care about the result windows or draw UI dad? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And they just want to play football with you. Come on, or build this Lego or whatever. It is incredible level, isn't it? Kids? Yeah, no, definitely. You're human climbing frame. Normally, Jermaine is just jumping all over. It's good man about it does it does. It brings you back to reality with a bump, which is good. Because sometimes you can get caught up in the world of football, you can get kind of taken away on a mad road and a mad. The energy can be very, very different. And just out of the stratosphere, which you actually live in. And you think actually, how do I actually get back to normality? And then the kids is just a perfect antidote to something like that, where you get carried away, your mom or your dad give you a little pawn. So listen, you doing a bit much there with this or that off the pitch? You don't need that with a kid you just walk through the door. And that's it that there they are the level I like so yeah. I mean, going back to sort of childhood, I mean, the upbringing of your children is I'm guessing probably different to the one that you had. Growing up and pack them at a time when you know, it's not maybe as safe as maybe as it would be now was sport and maybe football in particular.

Stuart Webber  03:02

Seen as a way of keeping you and you know, your brother out of trouble with sport the go to you get in trouble. You play sports.

Rio Ferdinand  03:11

It was in the end, but my mom and dad would remain. They were onto us. There weren't no messing about my dad was a he was very rude by an iron fist almost. Not physically. But he was he was very disciplined. He didn't have no stupidness and our house wouldn't suffer no falls. Like my mates are scared to come to my front door because they didn't say like, he's name or didn't ask politely. It just he wouldn't even talk to him. Yeah, he believed in good manners and doing things the right way. So my dad was like, it was hard sometimes. But at the same time that discipline made made me scared to come home and disappoint my parents. Right. So that was a lot of kids on my estate didn't have that with achievement, you mean like not just achieve good behavior. Okay, right. Good Behavior. My mom wanted me to do what things would always like be pushing me pushing me. But if I want to go and do gymnastics, or go and do a flex, I want to do a drama class or I want to go ballet like I did. Or you want to go and play football. My mom was 100% behind it, go and encourage and encourage him to do it. Express yourself. Whereas my dad, on the other hand was very much about discipline, you can think you're going to do that. But if you don't behave at school, or you don't, if ever I've police knocking on our door or anything like that, you're in trouble. So it was a thing that was important, because a lot of the kids will look back. Not all of them, but a lot of them probably didn't have that element of discipline in their life or that fear of disappointing their parents, maybe that respect, weren't there with some of their parents or they just get caught in the wrong, wrong place on time. Maybe I don't know. But I had those things that were fitted into my life that really enabled me to really focus on what I wanted to do, and understand that getting into trouble couldn't be If I was going to be successful,

Jonathan Parramint  05:02

I guess it was different for people that you perhaps went to school with in the era that you were born. I mean, it's the same for I grew up in Norfolk, and this was when I was like a really good kid. But you definitely just grow up with people that you're surrounded by who are just not. And you even I found growing up in an area like that, that you can't verge on certain behaviors if you one. It depends. It does depend what your base is, I think that goes for a lot of life. Actually, whatever your base is, because I found even me that you think, Oh, you could get in with a crowd if you wanted to. But I was just stayed away from it. Was that the same for you? Where you're kind of

Rio Ferdinand  05:37

established that like that, I'll say, You're a product of your own environment. Yeah, it is so true. When you think about it, like you can be so easily influenced. It's just about that what's behind you? What's the foundations behind you? Have you got that, then parents or guardians that as like I said before, that are going to make you stop and think in a situation before you go? Before you act before you go down that road. And I had that, because again, I got caught in a lot of situations growing up where I actually paused. And when I have to go home after this right date for me. Yeah, Jeremy, I want to stay around it and look around it and be like, I'm going to be a part of it. Because if that knock on the door, yeah. It's from a policeman from my front door. God help me.

Jonathan Parramint  06:22

How does that go down with the people you're with? Was this Is that something you've expressed openly enough to go after?

Rio Ferdinand  06:28

Yeah, they knew everyone knew my dad on the word what up for any stupid stuff going on. And if they were a part of getting me into trouble, they're probably thinking, I don't want to be that person. So it was quite like, and that was my dad didn't say anything to anybody didn't warn anyone, it just his body language was very strong. And people just under my mates understood that. And I was the youngest in my group of friends. And to be fair, I think football saved me in that sense as well. So I was I was, in a lot of situations where you go over estates, play football against other boys, some of real estate. So you walk around, and you're going to areas that you're not meant to be at maybe I was known as that boy plays football. That Boys good. So you get leeway. And you get a lot of the older guys and I hang around or older boys, you get a lot of the older guys that say that if we're going to go and do something, we leave it for a little bit, come back in an hour or so. Yeah. So I was lucky around that I didn't have to say nothing. They just planned it when I was when they knew I was going to work and do something else. They're gonna do what they're doing. So it kind of saved me in that sense. I didn't have to do my stuff. I didn't encounter as much bad stuff as I would have, if I hadn't had football was that that kind of separator feeling makes in that sense. And that's why again, my I'm still mates with a handful of them guys that we grew up with one night state, just because they were very, very good to me in that sense.

Jonathan Parramint  07:59

How will those relationships when you were playing for United and England, they were still a strong?

Rio Ferdinand  08:05

They still no no, they they didn't fizzle out. But they weren't as I weren't as connected to, to my some of my friends, one of my friends, who was my as my best mate, my best man at my wedding and stuff. I've been the same the whole way in that sense. But in terms of contact, but I realized when I was playing, when I started playing, I left London to go to Leeds I had to detach myself from certain friends and family. Because I was just, I wasn't living the right life relief to become a top professional top athlete. So I made that decision. And then as I got to mean it again, the same, and then by the end of my career, and then into retirement, you kind of reengage and relationships start building again. And it's crazy. It's just my friends lived through me a little bit. And we've spoken since I asked I used to have get emotional at the beginning where my friend you say when he was playing it was like I was playing. I used to say so and I never knew that I never ever spoke to a buyer but one of my friends said that to me. And I was like wow, that's how I would have been if it was you germane and not everyone's got lucky with makes like that where there's not jealousy that creeps in? Or is that listen whenever you play it I was my chest was out and I was telling people that's my friend. That's where I grew up with. And it was it was great. And that's why I like connecting back now and our friends our families are closer and stuff is is nice, but you've got to go through that little period where it tests your friendship and your friends and got allow you to kind of go and spread your wings and go and find out what what the world's got for you. Because, again, friends can hold you back with some of their actions and your lifestyle changes dramatically. Once you become a professional footballer, and you're offered to go every opening and every bar, every club, every restaurant, every event you're offered the opening and any kid that gets offered all of that free to free drinks free hugs at try the attention and stuff? Anyone? It's hard to say no. So imagine being the friend who knows all this is there and it's getting off at it. They've got no resistance to it. They like training. Exactly. So they're happy to go. But you need someone in your group, either you or someone in your group to go, I'm going to step away, don't need to do this. And then I end up having to step away move from London. And no, and those reasons were very valid. And you saw obviously, that my career went away it did. But I needed to do that, for it to be able to flourish.

Stuart Webber  10:40

Did you have to make any tough calls of blocking some people at your life? Because I imagine the more successful you become a Spanish world class player England, Leeds ever, Champions League semi final, Leeds United, they're not maybe the leaders just struggled the last few years and then obviously going to the biggest club in the world. Was there a period where because I imagine it's tough to sit in your shoes, but I always think how do you trust people? You know, so you can trust your people who've been with you from the beginning, but there must be so many new people who are coming into your life, who I want in a part of view. And let's be honest, some of the trappings must be incredibly tempting, because I think everyone forgets as well about footballers, and you know, advise lots of young top players is it like they're young, you're 21, you're 22, you're 23 to 24. Your impression, we don't know about full life, then, you know, sitting here is now we're talking as you know, 30 to 40 year old blokes who've had life experience, it's a lot easier to go Yeah, don't do that. Because well, of course, we know that that's not great. But when you're 24. So did you have to make some real tough calls and around who you actually spend time with cut people out your life?

Rio Ferdinand  11:49

Yeah, I had to make mistakes. And I had to live the experience, because I was, like, a lot of young people, I couldn't be told, you shouldn't really go out a lot. You shouldn't go to the nightclubs a lot. We shouldn't be going out chasing this and that. I'll work it out myself, I'll go and chase and I'll go go clubbing and I'll go and go out when I shouldn't maybe an RK mistakes are being made, then you make a call, like I did, I could have gone Chelsea, I could have gone Leeds, I need to leave London, I'm not going Chelsea, I'm going to go Leeds to get out. So I can stop getting into that trouble and getting on that road to, to kind of where it's going to be very devices from for me, but it was I think you have the experiences and then it's about not making the same mistakes. Again, if you repeatedly make the same mistakes, that's when there's something wrong, you just don't get it, you know, I mean, whereas like you got a rogue financial advisor, it's like almost every football has to go through that it's mad like a rogue financial advisor, an agent that you don't really fully trust or it's like every every player gets an agent, if the first ones never normally the right one, you end up with jahmene. And then, but you've got to go through it sometimes. And that's why I enjoyed it. The role that I play at the agency that I work with new era is that I can actually mentor a lot of young players. And you see that bumps in the road coming through my experiences that I hope hopefully I can tell them and they can navigate their way a bit clearer with a bit more of a a better picture. But it's it's hard, because you've got a tell people straight. I've got better as I've got older. Now I have no qualms about telling someone No. Yeah. But it's hard to make someone understand that no, should just be a sentence. Yeah, I've got to go explain it. There's a reason I'm saying no, that's it. A lot of people don't have that conversation. It's difficult to have hard conversations. But I've always found that once I've had that hard conversation, I feel much better. So weight off your shoulder, the situation is normally not as bad as you think it's going to be and the situation gets ironed out. But as a young kid, when you've got so much going on with football, you think all you're worried about is training and play. Well that's it. So all this other stuff is going on that people come into you with with the financial advisors, agents, etc. deals and friendships and stuff is just noise. Yeah. And you just want to just turn it off, like a radio and just turn the switch, turn it off. And that's when you're happy, don't have to deal with it and go through it. Whereas I definitely advise young kids now is to address them situations quick because I just end up staying there become a bad energy and heavy weights on your shoulders. And just, I mean, there's certain people I've just I just deleted them. Simple as that because they weren't bringing any value to me. There's only draining energy out of me. And I just, I didn't I didn't feel that was during my career at times. And since I've retired. I've done it as well because and I feel very comfortable doing it. Because I know it's the right thing.

Stuart Webber  14:45

I think as well. Something I learned is you don't have to justify remember being on a course once and as a top military person there. And he said, No, you don't have to justify yourself. If you say no, you say no, you don't have to give reasons all the rest of it. it's just a it's a straight No. And I've always stuck in my head. I think as well, when we talk about young people, and obviously the industry we work in young players always say to get the right agent, so they can deal with all of that crap that you don't have to, you just should be worried about playing football, you're 21.

Rio Ferdinand  15:16

But that's the problem with so many agents, you hear about it, it's like, they just want to do deals. Yeah. And there's so much more to it. That's why I've involved myself more, because I think there's so much more to it, there's there's so You've almost got to be like a social worker, you got to have the ability to deal with various situations with relationships with family members, etc. Because you got to remember is that there's a lot of money that comes in to these young players hands, there's a lot of people with a handout waiting, who says I've been on this journey with you without saying it you owe me? Yeah, Jeremy, make the player feels guilty. The player feels obliged, when really, you shouldn't. I mean, you said God, given talent that you've worked at, people have helped you in terms of getting you to A and B and stuff like that, which is understandable. But that's the duty of any parent. Yeah, during last night, that's not part of contract. That's like what love is meant to do. That was meant to get you to that stadium to get that training grant to get you to that training session. It's not with an IOU on it. Yeah. So. And it's hard for young players to understand that. I mean, because there's a lot of pressure put on to him. So I think the agents have to play a role in that the mentors in these players lives. Like I say, I've been I've been sticking in difficult conversations with people.

Stuart Webber  16:25

Yeah. And at times, have that ability to say no, you're wrong. And be honest with them. I think I see so many examples of ages. I understand. Maybe they're trying to keep their client, but I just tell them what they want to hear, like their friends do. And it's like, yeah, no, you're an adult. Tell them the truth. Tell them the way their behavior actually isn't gonna help them.

Rio Ferdinand  16:42

You're not playing? Because you don't really pay well. Yeah, exactly. Not I've been applying yourself in training I've heard from the coaches exactly go out. But what the first thing they do is, the kid rings him and goes, I'm not playing I want to get out. The agent comes knocking on the door, you could say but no, but and anyone else. You've not treated him right. And you've not done it. It's never like, I don't know what he actually hasn't been doing. What can you tell me? So I can put into his head to improve and get him better. And you get back in this team? It's never that conversation. It's just what I want to get out.

Stuart Webber  17:08

Yeah. And that's it. I think the best ones I've worked with, obviously sat on the other side of the fence are then ones that you can have an honest conversation with agents and go, no, no, we all want the same thing here. We want your player to be successful. So the team successful. So why don't work together? And why don't we tag team a little bit so that he's getting this, the players getting a consistent message? Because by the way, it's his benefit. And it's incredible how many don't and like real says how many times you get a knock on the door or phone call going. You haven't done this. You haven't done that. And it's like, Yeah, but he trains every day. He's the one out on the pitch, and I'm yet to meet a manager who doesn't want to win a football game. I'm yet to meet a manager who is doesn't pick 11 players who he genuinely thinks will help him win. I'm not sure my career, I'll meet that guy.

Jonathan Parramint  17:51

Is that more? Okay, so you mean in younger players? So with that? No, I think the whole spectrum really because I would have thought from listening to I mean, like, I'm not in your industry, but I thought that it would be more the case of you talking these lads about 2122 years old, who would have their agents would have that attitude. I would, I would have thought it would have phased out by about 2526. We

Stuart Webber  18:11

had one last year player came into my office no names. There's no. And I actually said to him, I said it's like dealing with a 32 year old toddler. Because it's the player. Yeah. Because it's like your agent ringing mono. And so I just pulled him I said, Hey, we're almost the same age. We're both dads, why don't we have an honest conversation about this, rather than your agent ringing me up saying you're unhappy with X, Y, and Zed? It's like, you're 10 yards away, just see me and it was like, it was painful? Because I think you're 32 mates. Like, come on. You're 32 No one would be speaking on my behalf. When it comes to contracts and stuff that's differently. You know? You're a football player. So of course you want someone who can be an expert in his contract, right? Am I getting paid or at mathematics? Absolutely. That's completely different. But when it's around gain time or not approve a squat or like me? You're growing up? Yeah, knock on the door. It's it's not hard, but

Rio Ferdinand  19:07

I never had my agent go and speak to my manager for me about anything to do football. I was gonna say I can't imagine you're raising go into Alice. Same Rios and as a farmer, if my agent asked to do that, yeah, tell him we treat you don't We don't. Yeah, that's my area. Yeah. Football on the pitch is where I do my thing. And I speak if I have a problem, my manager, I want to speak to all the coaches. You just worry about the contracts. I mean, it's not. I see that as being the manager would look at me as weak. Yeah, if my agent walked in, I wouldn't even want him to have a conversation with him. Because I think that don't look reflect well on me. I've got to be a man about it. It's like you've asked for it is yeah, yeah, yeah. So but it's a different generation. I suppose. You've got a look at it as well. The different in terms of communication and engaging with people very different to ours. Our generation I seem

Jonathan Parramint  19:53

to pick up on that about you actually just do it whether players see you as like, instead of going to the manager they can complain to you first. So you can sort of do the job does that is does that happen to you where they see you as a little bit, not a safety net, but like, they don't have to go to the manager and properly confront it, they use you as a bit of a screen first.

Stuart Webber  20:12

No. So what I always do, if a player ever comes to see me, I always say to them, the same thing. Unless this is somewhat deeply personal, anything, you're gonna say to me, you've got to be willing that I'm going to have to share this with the manager. Because we can't have a situation where you come behind someone's back to, you know, dig him out. So stupid person, like, that's completely different, because fully confidence, I wouldn't even tell my wife. And then, of course, if they come in, they will have a moan or whatever, no problem. It's talking through it. And I will articulate that in a way to the manager, just say, No, Rio has been in, he's going to come to you tomorrow. It's this, this and this, you know, I told him, he needs to come and see you. But at least I can sort of soften that up a little bit. But ultimately, as I always say to them, it's like, I don't pick the team. My job isn't that that's a manager's job. If you got from your contract, or you want advice on changing your agent, or whatever, yeah, coming out, let's have a conversation. I'll help you. But if it's, why aren't I playing, you're in the wrong office mate, because I don't pick the team. And that's not my job. But again, that comes back to just being honest and brutally honest with them. And you know, Rio, and his agency, I've one of our young players. And he would always tell you, Max Aaron's you know, whenever I spoke to him, it's just very honest to say it's straightforward. It's like, Max, this clubs come in on this. Your X ages on this band? Let's talk through it right. Do you need me to ring your dad? No. Is Jamie wet yet? Fine. Brilliant. We're on the same page. And then the next phone calls with the agent just say no, I've just bought them out to dinner. And then the agent rings me. And I think it's a transparency. It's just transparency. And it's honest. And you know, and Maria will tell you in terms of Jamie morally, who really looked after Max, and several other players that have you know, Ben Godfrey, and people aren't in the Murphy boys. You know, we've had debates where J have, I've seen things differently, but it's always just him being honest. And me being on top personal. I mean, it's not saying I don't put the phone out, I'm having to speak to him again, because he's trying to do the best for the player. I'm trying to do the best for the club. And often, it's somewhere we have to meet somewhere in the middle. And it's about being honest, transparent, and respectful. And I think at the end, it's about I always think comes back to fairness. I think where you have an issue is when you don't treat people fairly, in my opinion, that's all I ever want. From my bosses or whatever is no, no, just treat me fair. I don't be treated differently. Yeah. But be fair, don't try and mug me off. Don't try and pay me less go how we've done in there. And vice versa. I'm not going to ask for more. And go I've done you there. It's like no, let's just make it fair. And I think if you have that. It's not a bad way to go. Yeah, it was. I think it's the ones who are going into conversation about agents here all day, but it's the ones they've all got a yard on, you want to win. They want to you Oh, you see it with clubs. You know, we had one in the summer of a club. And they just had to win on the deal. And in the end, it's like, no problem. Like, if that's what you need to massage your ego. Yeah, I really care. I just want to play. So if you need to win, they go have the win. It's fine. It's okay. I don't need the win. But as often ego which I'm sure will come on to as well.

Jonathan Parramint  23:18

Yeah, I wonder about that? Because I think obviously, the bigger you get as like you must have been obviously with professional footballers, they're probably the best at their clubs when they're younger. They're all the best that they're all definitely

Rio Ferdinand  23:33

their school and stuff. Yeah. And I was you.

Jonathan Parramint  23:41

Yeah, but well, was that ever was ego never a problem for you? Because I do you talk about your your dad? And actually, I can't ever imagine it being a massive because I would have thought he would have put stop to that. But did you ever find that what you said? Were you good with your own ego? Or were you good at checking yourself?

Rio Ferdinand  23:58

No, I was good at checking myself. I was good. I have good friends. Maybe one of my mates did check me when I was about must have been 1314 Maybe just like stop taking the mick type thing. And yeah. When you know, don't let football the land is never kind of still never let life still. Yeah, it's always moving jahmene So you can't stand still and rest on your laurels. So I never got to a place where I stood down for and I'm looking at a mountain king of the castle. That's not me. Because you always knew that there was going to be another team another player. Another level to get to. So you couldn't stand there and really enjoy. So at no point in my career did I stand there and go I'm sappy with this content. Never ever happened. Because that's when it starts. That's when the design wanes. Yeah. And not that I knew as a young kid, but I always had aspirations for more I always wanted more. So I'd set a target of getting When I was still at school was 15 years old trying to get into the undiscovered underwriting and youth team Westham? Yeah. I want to get on the bench at least in my last year at school and play a few games. If I can you get to it, you don't go, Oh my God, I've done it. I've done it like I've cracked it is like, now when I want to become a star. As soon as I get in the first year, I don't want to be a sound money. And then it just carries on going it snowballs all the time. So you never stand still. And I was always scared of standing still. So your ego never can really get too out of hand. If you're like that. For me. That's how I found it. Yeah. So

Stuart Webber  25:33

how do you think you've become that? Because I find I find that fascinating. It's almost at a young age, you were able to set them goals and targets was that? Maybe? Would you put that to your parents?

Rio Ferdinand  25:43

Maybe because I had an ego as well in healthy one. Yeah, but healthy one. And I wanted. I wanted to be known as that boy come from back and become a footballer,

Stuart Webber  25:52

was about proving people wrong as well. So it was it was there ever a time where someone said, you won't get in the youth team at 15? Who saw all right corner.

Rio Ferdinand  25:59

And I don't know about proving people wrong, it was just like proving to myself, I want it to be known around my mates that you've made it, the one who's got and done well and made it. So what's your cause? Yeah, that's it, I just wanted to, it can be done on our estate, someone's got to make it. And we just have a saying, there's a few times, I don't know, I got lucky enough to do my own Nike Air Force, one trainer, like Limited Edition trainer when I was about 20 to 23, I think it was. And they got let me design it. And they done about 2050 pairs, limited pairs. And part of the design I had on the unit and the inner soul on the insole of the shoe was if I play if I play one minute of professional football, I'll die happy man. And I used to be our kind of motto on my estate, all my mates, or any of us have any level just known as we've played professional football. And obviously your aspirations grow. Once you hit that mark, you know, I mean, so it was always like, it was like, your ego wouldn't allow you not to get where you want to get to. Yeah, because I've got to come back now to this day and go, I felt that's the drivers. I mean, I don't wanna have to come back. I don't wanna have to go to a christening, where everyone knows that I've been playing at West Ham. And then at 19, they've told me I'm not good enough. And I've got to go back to that next question at some point with a family or family Christmas, wherever it is a wedding. And everyone goes, usually at worst now, that would kill me. I would I couldn't allow anything to happen.

Jonathan Parramint  27:26

It's funny, isn't it? Because I think some people, it does depend on the drive. Because I think some people I knew when I played football, when I was younger, we had about half the teams in the Norwich youth set up. And none of them made it unfortunately, although I think there were a couple of guys in there that really could have missed if they'd have stuck at it. But I actually think I notice from thinking back now there was a difference with them. They probably a couple of those would have quite liked it. Someone said it used to be at Norwich that have quite an I think there's there's a very definite difference in drive there. between what you know, I think that's really interesting from a young age coming back. But I liked your point earlier where you said, one of us has got to do it. It may as well but you so

Rio Ferdinand  28:12

unless again, were like one of us made it and the others live for Yeah, for you. And they walked that path they came Moscow, yeah, came to Old Trafford, they came to away games, etc. and was living it through one of us.

Jonathan Parramint  28:27

And also Anton was doing it but obviously made it happen for himself. took it down one step further than w two closest kids.

Rio Ferdinand  28:35

Yeah, there's a seven age gap, by the way. So I was like the big brother. Yeah. And so I'd always be out on the grass of him making him play one. We wonder if he's May and never let him win and things like that. And just like it was my way of playing with him, helping him build him. Yeah, and that character, but you had it tough. Each journey was tougher than mine. I had nobody has like a cloud by me. Which which would build expectation. So when people came and watch me it was just like watching an easel right? Yeah, no one knows him. He's a kid from wherever it is. No judgment. Whereas Anton was like, I love his plan any Where is he? You see, there's something to judge against. And it's hard. And he used to hear a lot of that. How was it a touch loans at a time I never knew. But since obviously, he said it was difficult because obviously people go he would hear people go That's really clever. He's not as good as we are. Or some people just just hearing is really, brava is a pressure in itself. Yeah, last time for England at a time and yeah, left for big money and stuff like that. So it was difficult. So having to live up to expectations all the time, is a big burden for young kid.

Stuart Webber  29:41

And he had that his whole career. Don't you think? The good career he had played the Premier League for how many years? 200 games. Exactly. And you know, not many people have done that. But yeah, it's still within within the industry. I'm talking about people. Yeah, that's real brother. Okay, he's not Anton then it can be

Rio Ferdinand  29:59

up and leave. And now, yeah, even though I'm conscious of it now, so I actually, I always think, do I say to him listen nice and taller, which let it go? Hope he hasn't heard or Yeah, so that you feel some sort of guilt, knowing how it was for him before you think I don't want it to continue for the rest of our lives. Yeah, I mean, but to know sometimes it just is what it is, and you've just got to roll with it.

Jonathan Parramint  30:22

Possum, you know, he must have been a great supporter. I mean, there's no better person for playing the same position as well. No better person for him to come to for career advice from an older brother seven or eight years old, who's playing for United in England was doing good for him. There are there are benefits as well.

Rio Ferdinand  30:38

There are benefits. Yeah. But it's what outweighs what you know, mean costs. But yeah, definitely, definitely add that that element as well. And it was in sometimes use a lot of people learn from not even talking. It's just watching and use you as a reference point sometimes. And so I think you've done a lot of that. And this and when he was 1617. I think a lot of people at the club, were saying listen, in terms of ceilings, and sons probably got a higher seat. It's higher ceiling, ability wise. But your career takes its shape, and God does what it does. You can't you can't put it down on paper and say this is our careers going to go there's a lot of things that can kind of derail it and stuff. So each career done what he's done on my career on what I've done, but I think at the end of it, we're both happy. Yeah,

Jonathan Parramint  31:25

yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Stuart Webber  31:26

Not bad. Not bad. I think, um, you know, one thing, which you know, for us is to white blokes is tough to ever imagine. And, you know, I'm from mid Wales, you're from Norfolk, so they're not the most diverse areas, to be honest, but racism as a young person, so you know, I think the awareness levels are getting higher and higher for people from people like my background, because they were brought up. It wasn't a black guy, wasn't it? You know? But same really Norfolk now, you know, I've got a young boy, he's five, and I'm very conscious of that of, oh, yeah, we've got a, we've got a little under more, we've got to go more places, because actually, it's not the most diverse place. And I'm conscious of him being better educated. And I was because I was, I don't mind him and I wasn't educated at all, from wherever that school, my mum, because it's just a little village and why would you be educated on Zillow never gonna affect you. So when you get into the bigger, wider world, I've had no until I'd say probably the last five, six years, actually no real appreciation of a how bad racism is. And be probably how damaging it is for people's lives. And I think I'd love us to talk about that on how it's affected your life.

Rio Ferdinand  32:49

It comes in different forms. I mean, sometimes sometimes people haven't even got a talk, you get the you get the one, usually ones where you've been name called and stuff. But then you've got other things where people are just a slight body language and and when people say are wise, it's much better than it was before. It's much better was one of us that was always taken aback, blah, blah, all lives matter. white lives matter. I'm like, You're missing the point. So mean, why people are marginalized. Like what white people wouldn't feel that feeling of not having the same opportunities. Feeling that they go into a situation knowing that a lot of time, more often than not, that you're going to be judged sometimes on your color of your skin, you might miss an opportunity because of the color of your skin. A white person never has to think those things. Like other situations when I was a kid going into shops in London, so it's almost like a little travel guide out of South London Peckham going into the West End, region street Oxford Street. All these big stores are one day I get that one day I get it all. We've all done it. And in trying to go one of them shops. And then the security guy puts his foot in the door new lock can't come in group for black boys together. Why can't you come in? No, you can't come in. You can't? Why Can't We? You don't know me? Yeah. Things like that, like a white person would never have to go through that show mean and all these things and then people and then then you're asked a question, why are you marching? Why are you gesturing? Why are you doing symbols of have taken a knee etc. Because of these type of things to stop this happening for the next generation because if you can even just to make a shift in racism, you're not going to change it, you're going to stop it. Face these things when people ask me why. I always get frustrated because you've not ever considered the feeling of a black person or person of color in those types of situations. Unfortunately, like you say, You guys may be from a background where you don't even on many black people to understand that which is, is just the way it is to work the way it's gone the way the world. But like you say, if you can get some that's why I'm massive on education I think all schools curriculum should have about racism, it should have kids learning about it. And that's why the power of taking a knee I think is such a powerful thing that needs to be continued. Because, say, you're still living in areas where there aren't any people of color. And your kids come in and go are my favorite footballers? Like, I don't know. Pooky Norwich is my favorite fact that why do you say why do you need number four, the game dad? Yeah, sparks station. And it has been it sparks a piece that you educate that your child now who may have never spoken to you about racism or anything like that, because they don't encounter any people of color. But now you've engaged in you know, you've given that little bit of artillery that if anybody does come to him with some discriminative words or, or language, etc, they have something now through that bit of education that's been sparked by taking a knee. They're equipped now to have that conversation and stand their ground.

Stuart Webber  36:05

And has has worked from that point, I've got a five year old. So if I'm playing football in the garden, he takes an E before we kick it, but the reason he does it because you watch on telly. It sparks debate because obviously the first thing he does is why are they even down? Because it's good? Because they asked the most blunt question. That's

Jonathan Parramint  36:22

exactly the reason for it, isn't it? That's that's a great, but I think in

Stuart Webber  36:25

schools on the edge, because everything's what education is about whether it's abuse, it's drugs, it's whatever it's about educating our way out of this country is

Rio Ferdinand  36:34

all forms of discrimination. You just needs to be educated or

Stuart Webber  36:37

educated. But I think it's it's show in its it's actually giving people in real life hard hitting examples, because I think too often as well, we do dance around subjects. And because it's uncomfortable, because let's go rora so that people who don't understand or haven't witnessed it go, Oh, wow. Okay, because you say that story there. Because you're right, we've all done these kids, you go, you know, maybe not for me, London, but bigger city, other cities and go one day, you know, I want to buy that I want to buy that, because that's what you do as a young guy. Bearing in that story, it's like, jeez, that's just horrendous. I mean, and there'll be rora ones much more. But I think sometimes it's like, that's when you get people's attention is when it's like, it's like, you know, when the penalty kicks in, in the Euros, go on show what it really says. Because make it rora. So it shakes us a little bit when it's, this is actually what was said, by the way about him. I think there's nothing

Rio Ferdinand  37:37

here, there's no, there's no, there's no repercussions for people. That's the problem. There's no, there's no, there's nothing been said there's no template that says that when some someone says something of any form of discriminative language, via social media, there isn't any laws in place that protects the person on the receiving end. So the person the perpetrator can do it from behind a mountain. Yeah, they haven't already seen they've got an I haven't got put any information down in terms of who they are, where they're where they're from no idea at all. So you can do it and be anonymous, and it doesn't make sense. And it just, it protects the perpetrator more than it does the victim, which is unbelievable. Differences from years ago, if you just isolate to football, you go to a game is on the terraces. Yeah, just a sharp show here shots and stuff like that. But as a black player, that's within the 90 minutes. Whereas now, you might hear something during the 90 minutes, but also on social media. Is there forever, of course. So it's constant. And so that that that victim can't get away from it. Can't turn it off, because it's at their fingertips on social media constantly all the time. And so again, racism people say it's better I just think has shifted. Yeah, it's been able to you can you can kind of hide now and not put your head above the parapet you can just show over there and be anonymous, but still spot when you feel like it. And so when people say it's not that you don't you might not hear it as much in stadiums as you might have before. Yeah. But you, you're on the receiving end a lot more.

Jonathan Parramint  39:17

I think it's a lot to do, isn't it? Like the information that people have to give to give a social media to get a social media account is just nothing. I mean, any of us can create well now in terms of using traceable Yeah. And it's it's some something that's got to change about that, because that's stuck. I mean, that's just

Rio Ferdinand  39:33

legislation needs to change. So I went to the Houses of Parliament for digital talk about issue because we've got technology, which is so fast moving and evolved so quickly and changes. The landscape changed last year to today. But the legislation is archaic. Legislation is from flippin yesterday. Sta Yeah. The legislation needs to catch up with technology to be able to facilitate getting hold of the perpetrators of these types of crimes and how to like go. What's the we've got to wait a long time to get the result? So be able to be obviously what ongoing discussions and there's obviously debate and and whatnot. But if the final kind of answer and change if there is to be changed won't be probably to q3 q4, next year probably.

Jonathan Parramint  40:23

Well, I remember you talking about players straight off the games, I remember us having a conversation, and how quickly players now go on to their social media after a game. Yeah, and if you have a bad one, it's just you open this. I mean, if you look hard enough, you'll find negativity. And you know, if you really look I know, with with my job, or certain people that I know is like, if you look hard, I feel fine. So it depends. You know,

Rio Ferdinand  40:51

the funny thing is, it's not about playing well, or playing bad. If you play bad. You get hammered by your own fans. Yeah, if you play well, you get hammered by the opposing fans. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. If you do damned if you don't, yeah.

Stuart Webber  41:04

So would you would you have looked at it riano Probably be the end of your career when it came probably a mental as it is now. Because in terms of social I

Rio Ferdinand  41:12

embrace social media really early, probably one of the first players Yeah, it was like, I loved it. And I'm sorry for what it was. Yeah. So I, I never took anything seriously. Yeah, if someone was spouting stuff, at the beginning, I used to reply and get emotional by reply, and I got fined a lot of money for it as a political believer. Drink and they never, never, no, don't tweet with a drink. Advise it but I am. I quickly realized and learned because the amount of money to pay out but you just got to just take it for what it is. You're stupid idiots. You're trying to get a rise out? Yeah, yeah, just gotta just be bigger than it is difficult. But I had to fix skin as well. It's just depends how you're built as well. Yeah, and deal with it. Some people just haven't got the ability to be able to see past the first negative tweet, they get 1000 brilliant ones, and they get two bad ones. And then two bad ones control their mood for the rest of their day. Yes, Mark. Really, I

Stuart Webber  42:06

remember someone saying, we did a workshop at work about social media. And it was Simon Thomas actually, you know, the sky presenter and he said about just a bit like having the most amazing swimming pool. Warm water blue, he says, But all you ever focus on his turn in the corner? Yeah, that one bad tweet. Because it's there. And like you say it really affects people's mood and blows my brains when you go in five minutes after a game in a dressing room and you see the lads looking about what?

Rio Ferdinand  42:37

You're obviously in the workings of a football club? Can you not control that culture?

Stuart Webber  42:42

No, I think you can control it for straight after the game. That's what I mean for straight after the game, I think as soon as you're back to in there on it anyway. But I just can't get my head around what I want to do it. That's a bit I can't get. And we try and use the senior lads to help. The younger ones on that, too.

Rio Ferdinand  42:59

A lot of them judge their performance is based on social media.

Stuart Webber  43:02

I mean, we still had it. It's only about six months ago, a local journalist said to me that he'd had an Instagram message with one of our players, who's no longer with us digging him out because he gave him a six out of 10 in the paper. I think I can't believe you still read that drop me. I didn't even know they're still doing player ratings. But I think Why do you care? What Yeah, he probably hasn't even watched the game properly. Because this man is he's at the time just taping up his match report while the game is going on. They have to ask like corner. But it's amazing how. But I think it comes back to you know, social socially as well. A little bit more fragile now. And yeah, they worry about what Joe Bloggs image. Yeah. Which I find it scary. I'm glad I'm not in that world in terms of I don't have social media and I know but I actually don't care what people think it doubles me as long as it's not affecting my families. I couldn't care less of it a bit where people obviously and what they said about now cuz I don't really care. I don't know. So if I'm saying about me, yeah, I'd be upset or if my owners or whatever. But if it's some bloke I've never met. I don't know, we don't know the context you don't know, the challenges or what we're going through. So yeah, it's

Jonathan Parramint  44:20

but I don't know how that stops either. I don't know how you do stop players doing that. They're going to I mean, you can ban it from grounds but when I get

Rio Ferdinand  44:29

the Wi Fi off, and

Stuart Webber  44:31

I think it's the instant need for being like

Jonathan Parramint  44:35

validation. That doesn't last long does it because you're looking for the bad one. Really? Yeah, that you don't even know it. But you are that's what you're looking for. When you die if you break up with someone that you you look them up. You're not going to find anything good, you know, you know? Yeah. But if you're looking at you subconsciously looking for the bad stuff. I think he's so dumb. I don't know. use it much. I mean, I've got like four followers, but it was tweeted me. Like, they're all me. Yeah, I don't know what it's like for someone in the public eye. So some of the young players, for example, if you're 20 years old, it's damaging. It's damaging. also never been through this before. plays like 20 years ago, it came in the latter part of your career. There's no guide for this. Everyone's feeling their way. And I think that that's

Rio Ferdinand  45:29

the way and if you're not on it, you're you're a weirdo. Yeah, yeah. Besides looked at? Yeah.

Jonathan Parramint  45:35

I've heard that people say you're not on Instagram. So now. Yeah,

Stuart Webber  45:40

I definitely would have been on it. If I was younger and Isabel Yeah. So when I taught now, I was 37. It's like, it's 47 year old miserable fella talking fast. 20 people over because yeah, because like connecting with birds or whatever. It's not like you

Rio Ferdinand  45:57

don't there's no chat up lines. Now. It's a message. So yeah, don't chat to each other.

Stuart Webber  46:03

Mentor, it blows my brains when you see the lads do what they do. I'm like, that is actually mental. When you like what you just have to swipe across. And if it matches you

Rio Ferdinand  46:12

how easy that man is out. The fact that you have to work you know. That's number when he was young when he's a kid when I was a kid going into a nightclub. The adrenaline was only match on a football pitch to a woman and say to her listen, that try and get a number of Santa's that are so make her laugh or whatever it was. But it was like that, that understanding that you can again uncover new will without a doubt. There's not a point in this night. If you're going to Chapter birds and you're in a game and you're you're single, where you ain't going to get knocked back. Everyone, I don't care who you are. You are getting knocked back. If you go and speak to five different women trying to get numbers, it's just like, but it was almost like part of the night out. But okay, dusty off. Well. Gagan Yeah, he's managed as part of it. Whereas now they don't have that. It's like, oh, they didn't tap on my picture didn't like it didn't like It's like mad, like, so different. But it's that point about having social medium. We've got kids, I haven't learned. So my kids are like 1315 1311 Baby, just turning one. But the other ones, two boys. They want to be on all the social media platforms, right. And I know the dangers because I've experienced it. And I'm older. And I've obviously been through it off social media, and it's trying to convince him you don't really need it in your life yet. It's not the be all end all. But they're sitting there going to be dad. Everyone's got social media. Kids who are free is younger than me that have got social media. I look like an egg. Come on. Please let me get on it. And I'm like, Well, no, you're not responsible enough yet. Yeah. Well, I think you're responsible enough you I let you etc. But he's trying to teach him the ways in which to use it in the right way that they don't leave themselves open and vulnerable time man,

Stuart Webber  48:01

cuz there's positives to it that you know, like, yeah, the news. You can get in and connect with friends and marketing

Jonathan Parramint  48:06

and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  48:09

make a business out of it. Yes.

Rio Ferdinand  48:10

That's all I saw as well. When it first come when I saw it in America. And I saw a few other sports stars and work using it. I saw I thought I thought this is a business. Yeah. Is this has got the ability to have a core group of people that want to leave football. Darker still communicate with and as a business owner somewhere? Yeah.

Jonathan Parramint  48:27

I mean, I think in the right hands, it can be brilliant. Yeah, but in the wrong one. It's, it's just poisonous. It can be the worst. It's just that yeah, that poor 18 year old footballer who's had a bad game sitting at home on his own or whatever, in town. Yeah. And it's just reading that, I think, Ah, what's it? What's that doing mentally?

Stuart Webber  48:48

That education again, so the only person whose opinion matters is maybe a dad, or mom or whoever's about the manager and your manager,

Jonathan Parramint  48:54

maybe learn that as you get older? I mean, interesting. If I know you'll know this, but players in their late 20s is, I don't know, probably more prevalent if you're 1819 20, or something like that. To play 29.

Rio Ferdinand  49:08

Really? Yeah. Some of the players or some of the people you see anything? Well, you're a grown man with kids, and you're reacting like that to a situation. Well,

Stuart Webber  49:16

17 year old tweeting you? Yeah,

Rio Ferdinand  49:18

well, that's the thing as well. 11 year old 11 year old.

Jonathan Parramint  49:21

Yeah. That's the

Stuart Webber  49:21

problem. Is that that supports the opposition. Yeah,

Jonathan Parramint  49:24

but that also you're living the life they wish they had as well. And you're taking note of what the criticisms are, I don't know. Yet.

Rio Ferdinand  49:31

In in a face to face with them people. They would have no value. Yeah. And your emotions, and are they exactly? Yeah, on a message on social media where you don't see him? Don't know is they can ruin your day. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  49:47

Yeah. Sorry, a couple of questions to finish off. One is, what's your one piece of advice in dealing with adversity?

Rio Ferdinand  49:56

I think when things go wrong, I think before you even get on your journey to work You want to go to, I think you have to play your mind that things aren't gonna go perfectly, there's going to be a bump in the road, there's going to be on that road to that. That target you set yourself, there's going to be a moment in or moments in that journey where it goes a little bit left off the beaten track. And don't let that take you, away from your target. Understand that it's not all going to be swimming, well, it's not all going to be perfect. And it's about making sure you remain focused on where that target is an I just think adversity is part of life, you've got to expect it, be ready for don't think you're going to have a good easy life. Problems are normal for everybody. And if you don't go into expecting it, that's when you come up short a lot of the time. Yeah.

Stuart Webber  50:51

And I don't think this question gets asked ever enough is your one piece of advice about dealing with success?

Rio Ferdinand  51:01

I think dealing with success and adversity as well as I think is a good one. That's right, it's nice to say to us as well was enjoy the good times. You can enjoy the bad times as well. If you're going to learn from them. And also, you don't get too high when you win and don't get too low and you lose, find that balance. And that's why I went when we used to win at my United like, when I retired, I look back now I see teams that are celebrating like promotions or celebrating winning the League Cup, like during parades and things like that. And I'm thinking we didn't enjoy it like that. Or maybe that was part of our success. We didn't get too out of our prime about stuff. But also when we lost it wasn't the end of the world. With that there was a target, it was all aligned to get into. We knew there was the road to go to go down to do it, and stay on it.

Stuart Webber  51:52

And do you think his point about enjoying adversity was about almost embracing the challenge? And we're seeing it as like, actually, when we come through this, it's gonna be more enjoyable than if as far as because when things come easy, it is never enjoyable. But like

Rio Ferdinand  52:08

before, we said when you've had a bit of pain, when you've had a bit of pain, or you've had a little bit of adversity, you've had a little bit of a knock back. Injury maybe, I mean, told you weren't good enough, and then you make it ICUs things like that fuel up bad, bad reports or pump someone who'd come for me in the papers or in the media, then things will I'd have to put up on the board nowhere, right? It's pinned up inside my head. I knew it. I knew it was there. I knew who said it. I knew what they said it. I knew what paper they was in or what radio station or wherever TV station when it was it was there. And then all that sudden, you do something well, or you get back to a point where I didn't expect you to get back or they said you wouldn't. And it was I didn't even have to say anything to him. But I needed that feel. So mean, you've got to embrace that negativity. Don't be great. Good. Very rare. Thank you. Thank you, man. Good. Well, guys, thanks.

Stuart Webber  53:01

Thanks for listening. Find out more about the charity foundation, please visit www dot for summit foundation.co.uk